Обсуждение: Translations contributions urgently needed

Hi,

I have found that Japanese language support for the database server
has been dropped for 10.  This is because it fell below the 80% of
strings translated requirement, so it was shipped without Japanese.
This isn't true of all components, but it seems quite alarming that
we've pushed out PostgreSQL 10 with no language support for a country
that has contributed a significant amount to the project, and has a
relatively large number of users.

The database server also dropped support for Indonesian and Portugese
(Brazil).  In fact, just between 9.6 and 10, the following language
support was dropped for these components:

 cs       | plpython
 de       | pg_resetxlog
 es       | pg_resetxlog
 fr       | pg_resetxlog
 id       | postgres
 it       | pg_resetxlog
 ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
 ko       | pg_resetxlog
 pl       | pg_resetxlog
 pt_BR    | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,pltcl,postgres
 ru       | pg_resetxlog
 sv       | pg_resetxlog
 tr       | plperl
 zh_CN    | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,pltcl
 zh_TW    | plperl

This is a huge amount of compared to what happened between 9.5 and 9.6:

 cs       | psql

between 9.4 and 9.5:

 cs       | pltcl
 ro       | pltcl
 tr       | libpq,pltcl
 zh_TW    | pltcl,psql

and between 9.3 and 9.4:

 cs       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog
 ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog
 zh_TW    | pg_ctl,postgres


There are many translations that are on the verge of falling under
80%.  Japanese alone has 6 components between 80-83%, but other
languages are in a similar position.

I feel this is something that we, as a community, need to address.
Unfortunately, some of us aren't in a position to contribute to such
an effort.  We need folk to step forward to help get these
translations updated, or this situation will likely only get worse.

Thanks

Thom

On 22 February 2018 at 17:24, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 6:20 PM, Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have found that Japanese language support for the database server
>> has been dropped for 10.  This is because it fell below the 80% of
>> strings translated requirement, so it was shipped without Japanese.
>> This isn't true of all components, but it seems quite alarming that
>> we've pushed out PostgreSQL 10 with no language support for a country
>> that has contributed a significant amount to the project, and has a
>> relatively large number of users.
>>
>> The database server also dropped support for Indonesian and Portugese
>> (Brazil).  In fact, just between 9.6 and 10, the following language
>> support was dropped for these components:
>>
>>  cs       | plpython
>>  de       | pg_resetxlog
>>  es       | pg_resetxlog
>>  fr       | pg_resetxlog
>>  id       | postgres
>>  it       | pg_resetxlog
>>  ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
>>  ko       | pg_resetxlog
>>  pl       | pg_resetxlog
>>  pt_BR    | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,pltcl,postgres
>>  ru       | pg_resetxlog
>>  sv       | pg_resetxlog
>>  tr       | plperl
>>  zh_CN    | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,pltcl
>>  zh_TW    | plperl
>
>
> Arent all those pg_resetxlog entries because it was renamed to pg_resetwal?
> Is that because they were actually not updated for the new name, or is it a
> reporting side effect?

Oh yes, okay, that's true.  I guess we can ignore those, so it's a
little less dire for 9.6 to 10 then.  We get this instead, which is
still not good:

 cs       | plpython
 id       | postgres
 it       | pg_resetxlog
 ja       | pg_basebackup,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
 pt_BR    | pg_basebackup,pltcl,postgres
 tr       | plperl
 zh_CN    | pg_basebackup,pltcl
 zh_TW    | plperl

Thom

Hi, I’m translating to Korean since 10 years over.
I think this issue should be left to the local community.
It may be omitted in some versions, or added in some versions.
because, it depends on volunteering.
Let It Be!

Regards Ioseph.


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 05:29:11PM +0000, Thom Brown wrote:
> On 22 February 2018 at 17:24, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 6:20 PM, Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I have found that Japanese language support for the database server
> >> has been dropped for 10.  This is because it fell below the 80% of
> >> strings translated requirement, so it was shipped without Japanese.
> >> This isn't true of all components, but it seems quite alarming that
> >> we've pushed out PostgreSQL 10 with no language support for a country
> >> that has contributed a significant amount to the project, and has a
> >> relatively large number of users.
> >>
> >> The database server also dropped support for Indonesian and Portugese
> >> (Brazil).  In fact, just between 9.6 and 10, the following language
> >> support was dropped for these components:
> >>
> >>  cs       | plpython
> >>  de       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  es       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  fr       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  id       | postgres
> >>  it       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
> >>  ko       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  pl       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  pt_BR    | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,pltcl,postgres
> >>  ru       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  sv       | pg_resetxlog
> >>  tr       | plperl
> >>  zh_CN    | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,pltcl
> >>  zh_TW    | plperl
> >
> >
> > Arent all those pg_resetxlog entries because it was renamed to pg_resetwal?
> > Is that because they were actually not updated for the new name, or is it a
> > reporting side effect?
> 
> Oh yes, okay, that's true.  I guess we can ignore those, so it's a
> little less dire for 9.6 to 10 then.  We get this instead, which is
> still not good:
> 
>  cs       | plpython
>  id       | postgres
>  it       | pg_resetxlog
>  ja       | pg_basebackup,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
>  pt_BR    | pg_basebackup,pltcl,postgres
>  tr       | plperl
>  zh_CN    | pg_basebackup,pltcl
>  zh_TW    | plperl
> 
> Thom
> 

> I have found that Japanese language support for the database server
> has been dropped for 10.  This is because it fell below the 80% of
> strings translated requirement, so it was shipped without Japanese.

Was that mentioned in the 10.0 release note? I didn't know that.

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Tatsuo Ishii <ishii@sraoss.co.jp> wrote:
>> I have found that Japanese language support for the database server
>> has been dropped for 10.  This is because it fell below the 80% of
>> strings translated requirement, so it was shipped without Japanese.
>
> Was that mentioned in the 10.0 release note? I didn't know that.

I don't think we ever mention translations that are added or dropped
in minor release notes.  But it seems unfortunate that we lost such an
important one with little comment.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

>> Was that mentioned in the 10.0 release note? I didn't know that.
> 
> I don't think we ever mention translations that are added or dropped
> in minor release notes.

I think it would better for users to be noticed that in the release
notes because the message translations are apparently visible to
users. In my understanding the note can be generated automatically.

> But it seems unfortunate that we lost such an
> important one with little comment.

Yeah. I have spent a lot of time on translating manuals into Japanese
(even has not finished the work for 10.0) and I didn't have spare time
to work on the Japanese message translations.

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

# my clone repository has been corrupted...sigh.

At Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:32:15 -0500, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote in
<CA+TgmoYFrrca7g4fZMeNV7XZaXRy46B5e4uyO_7Ou+ZnuMSXBw@mail.gmail.com>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Tatsuo Ishii <ishii@sraoss.co.jp> wrote:
> >> I have found that Japanese language support for the database server
> >> has been dropped for 10.  This is because it fell below the 80% of
> >> strings translated requirement, so it was shipped without Japanese.
> >
> > Was that mentioned in the 10.0 release note? I didn't know that.
> 
> I don't think we ever mention translations that are added or dropped
> in minor release notes.  But it seems unfortunate that we lost such an
> important one with little comment.

I also noticed the same thing few days ago, by the fact that RPM
release of PG10 doesn't contain psql translation.

@10 >  ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
@9.4>  ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog

I'm not sure how the translations are maintained but I think I can help.
Ishii-san, Thom, may I take some (or all?) of the files?

regards,

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

> I also noticed the same thing few days ago, by the fact that RPM
> release of PG10 doesn't contain psql translation.
> 
> @10 >  ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog,plpython,pltcl,postgres,psql
> @9.4>  ja       | pg_basebackup,pg_resetxlog
> 
> I'm not sure how the translations are maintained but I think I can help.
> Ishii-san, Thom, may I take some (or all?) of the files?

I'm not working on message translations.  Hotta-san is actively
working on the translations here:

https://github.com/hotta/pg-nls-ja

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

> I was wondering a bit about how translations are maintained. Experience
> with another highly internationalised project years ago showed that many
> people who are willing to volunteer as translators are NOT willing to
> interact with git (or at the time, svn) and the other tools many of us take
> for granted.
> 
> Can more be gained with user-friendly, probably web-based, translation
> tools to make translation updating more accessible?

Do you have any recommendation for such tools?

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:51:02AM +0900, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
> I'm not working on message translations.  Hotta-san is actively
> working on the translations here:
>
> https://github.com/hotta/pg-nls-ja

If you need help here, feel free to ping me.  I have done translation to
Japanese for other things in the past in technical products, so anything
related to Postgres in this language is not much an issue from here.
--
Michael

Michael Paquier wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:51:02AM +0900, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
> > I'm not working on message translations.  Hotta-san is actively
> > working on the translations here:
> > 
> > https://github.com/hotta/pg-nls-ja
> 
> If you need help here, feel free to ping me.  I have done translation to
> Japanese for other things in the past in technical products, so anything
> related to Postgres in this language is not much an issue from here.

How many repositories do we need, though?  There is already one in
git.postgresql.org -- see https://babel.postgresql.org/

Surely we could add a few committers that can take care of Japanese.

Please join pgsql-translators@postgresql.org.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:45:11PM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> How many repositories do we need, though?  There is already one in
> git.postgresql.org -- see https://babel.postgresql.org/

Centralizing things into postgresql.org is nice for the long term.

> Please join pgsql-translators@postgresql.org.

Oki, done.
--
Michael

> Michael Paquier wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:51:02AM +0900, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
>> > I'm not working on message translations.  Hotta-san is actively
>> > working on the translations here:
>> > 
>> > https://github.com/hotta/pg-nls-ja
>> 
>> If you need help here, feel free to ping me.  I have done translation to
>> Japanese for other things in the past in technical products, so anything
>> related to Postgres in this language is not much an issue from here.
> 
> How many repositories do we need, though?  There is already one in
> git.postgresql.org -- see https://babel.postgresql.org/
> 
> Surely we could add a few committers that can take care of Japanese.
> 
> Please join pgsql-translators@postgresql.org.

In my understanding Hotta-san is using the github repository to get
some reviews from other people who are working on PostgreSQL manual
translation project before submitting the po files to the patch
tracker:

https://redmine.postgresql.org/projects/pgtranslation

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:51:02AM +0900, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
>> I'm not working on message translations.  Hotta-san is actively
>> working on the translations here:
>> 
>> https://github.com/hotta/pg-nls-ja
> 
> If you need help here, feel free to ping me.  I have done translation to
> Japanese for other things in the past in technical products, so anything
> related to Postgres in this language is not much an issue from here.

Thank you for the offering. Hotta-san and people working on the
translation work are communicating at:

https://ml.postgresql.jp/mailman/listinfo/jpug-doc/

So you might want to be subscribed to the list then talk to Hotta-san,
or directly write to him.

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:
> Please join pgsql-translators@postgresql.org.

What surprises me about this thread is that apparently the sad state
of the v10 translations wasn't already discussed on that list?

I have no objection to calling for more translation volunteers on
this list --- in fact, probably it'd be a good idea to call for
more help on pgsql-general, too.  But it doesn't seem like it's
quite on-topic for -hackers otherwise.

            regards, tom lane

On 23 February 2018 at 04:04, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:
>> Please join pgsql-translators@postgresql.org.
>
> What surprises me about this thread is that apparently the sad state
> of the v10 translations wasn't already discussed on that list?
>
> I have no objection to calling for more translation volunteers on
> this list --- in fact, probably it'd be a good idea to call for
> more help on pgsql-general, too.  But it doesn't seem like it's
> quite on-topic for -hackers otherwise.

Something that isn't clear to me is, for a language that didn't meet
80% translation for a component, if it does reach 80% after the major
version release, does it then get shipped in a minor release, or is
out of that version completely until the next major version?

Thom

Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> writes:
> Something that isn't clear to me is, for a language that didn't meet
> 80% translation for a component, if it does reach 80% after the major
> version release, does it then get shipped in a minor release, or is
> out of that version completely until the next major version?

No, it'll be added to the next minor release as soon as it reaches
80%.  That's happened routinely in the past.  I have no idea how
automated that policy is -- you could ask Peter E. -- but a trawl
through the commit logs shows .po files getting added in minor
releases from time to time.

            regards, tom lane

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
> Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> writes:
>> Something that isn't clear to me is, for a language that didn't meet
>> 80% translation for a component, if it does reach 80% after the major
>> version release, does it then get shipped in a minor release, or is
>> out of that version completely until the next major version?
>
> No, it'll be added to the next minor release as soon as it reaches
> 80%.  That's happened routinely in the past.  I have no idea how
> automated that policy is -- you could ask Peter E. -- but a trawl
> through the commit logs shows .po files getting added in minor
> releases from time to time.

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NLS#Minimum_Translation implies the
opposite, because it refers to inclusion "in a PostgreSQL major
release".

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Thu, February 22, 2018 11:04 pm, Tom Lane wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:
>> Please join pgsql-translators@postgresql.org.
>
> What surprises me about this thread is that apparently the sad state
> of the v10 translations wasn't already discussed on that list?

The list is more or less dead - over the past 6 months there where only
between 1 and 5 messages per month.

> I have no objection to calling for more translation volunteers on
> this list --- in fact, probably it'd be a good idea to call for
> more help on pgsql-general, too.  But it doesn't seem like it's
> quite on-topic for -hackers otherwise.

I do think it would be a good idea to at least send a translation summary
once a quarter to the translators list and maybe include hackers and
general - many might not be aware of the 80% rule.

Also an automated summary one ore two months before a major release as a
"call for action" would be good to avoid such mishaps.

Last but not least I'd be able to help with the german translation, but I
have no clear idea how, or what the actual status is. Are German
translators actually needed?

And while I have no problem entering some texts on a website or edit a
file with an editor, the process described here:

  https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/nls-translator.html

sounds complicated and leaves me unclear on quite a few things, for
instance how would I submit whatever work I've done? Do I need git? An
account? Where? And how does it all work?

I guess a lot of potential translators who aren't programmers would be
left baffled, too.

Best regards,

Tels

On 2/23/18 10:48, Robert Haas wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>> Thom Brown <thom@linux.com> writes:
>>> Something that isn't clear to me is, for a language that didn't meet
>>> 80% translation for a component, if it does reach 80% after the major
>>> version release, does it then get shipped in a minor release, or is
>>> out of that version completely until the next major version?
>>
>> No, it'll be added to the next minor release as soon as it reaches
>> 80%.  That's happened routinely in the past.  I have no idea how
>> automated that policy is -- you could ask Peter E. -- but a trawl
>> through the commit logs shows .po files getting added in minor
>> releases from time to time.
> 
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NLS#Minimum_Translation implies the
> opposite, because it refers to inclusion "in a PostgreSQL major
> release".

That section is meant to say, if a translation ships in 10.0 with 81%
but then drops to 79% because some backpatching changes strings, we
won't drop it in 10.2.

In the opposite case, it would be added to a minor release.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut              http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Peter Eisentraut
<peter.eisentraut@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
> That section is meant to say, if a translation ships in 10.0 with 81%
> but then drops to 79% because some backpatching changes strings, we
> won't drop it in 10.2.
>
> In the opposite case, it would be added to a minor release.

Good to know, thanks.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Tels wrote:

> Last but not least I'd be able to help with the german translation, but I
> have no clear idea how, or what the actual status is. Are German
> translators actually needed?

German, along with Russian and French, are pretty much the only
translations kept fully up to date almost all the time.  It used to be
the case for Spanish also, but I've been slacking lately.  The status
tables are here:
https://babel.postgresql.org/

> And while I have no problem entering some texts on a website or edit a
> file with an editor, the process described here:
> 
>   https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/nls-translator.html
> 
> sounds complicated [...]

I think we should link to our Babel site in that page, and also to the
translator-level docs which are here:
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NLS


Clearly, for a few languages the current facilities are sufficient.
If we make the process easier, we're likely to have more translations.
Will there be people verifying the quality also?

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 9:15 PM, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
> Clearly, for a few languages the current facilities are sufficient.
> If we make the process easier, we're likely to have more translations.
> Will there be people verifying the quality also?

It seems to me that making the process easier has got to be a net
positive.  It's possible that some language which otherwise would have
had no translation at all will end up with a bad one, but it's equally
possible that some language which would otherwise have had a bad one
will end up with a good one.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company