Обсуждение: Looking for an online mentor

On 12/08/2016 03:46 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for an online mentor, someone I can chat/email and ask
> questions of. Maybe "meet up" and have a direct chat. I've been trying
> to get into SQL for years and I just... have... problems. It's very
> frustrating and at this point in my career is going to keep me from
> getting a new job. (I was just laid off on 11/30.)
>
> I have a project in mind: I want to build an SQL db to house some
> datasets and sit a tableau dashboard/storyboard on top. A data engineer
> at my old job said that would be his preferred method, and I think it
> would be a useful project to learn SQL.
>
> I know this is the pgadmin support and not a postgres, but I'm
> technically going to be using pgadmin so it's tangentially related ;)

Actually this is the Postgres mailing list.

FYI, the pgAdmin list is here:

https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgadmin-support/

Though pgAdmin is often discussed on this list(pgsql-general).

>
> Any input, even on the project?


What language(s) do you plan to program in?

What studying on SQL have you done?

What will the purpose of the project?


>
> thanks,
> meta


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On 12/08/2016 03:46 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for an online mentor, someone I can chat/email and ask
> questions of. Maybe "meet up" and have a direct chat. I've been trying
> to get into SQL for years and I just... have... problems. It's very
> frustrating and at this point in my career is going to keep me from
> getting a new job. (I was just laid off on 11/30.)
>
> I have a project in mind: I want to build an SQL db to house some
> datasets and sit a tableau dashboard/storyboard on top. A data engineer
> at my old job said that would be his preferred method, and I think it
> would be a useful project to learn SQL.
>
> I know this is the pgadmin support and not a postgres, but I'm
> technically going to be using pgadmin so it's tangentially related ;)

Actually this is the Postgres mailing list.

FYI, the pgAdmin list is here:

https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgadmin-support/

Though pgAdmin is often discussed on this list(pgsql-general).

>
> Any input, even on the project?


What language(s) do you plan to program in?

What studying on SQL have you done?

What will the purpose of the project?


>
> thanks,
> meta


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On 12/08/2016 04:19 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
> Sorry, I got on so many lists yesterday. I'm really not that dense.
>
> I have absolutely no language programming skills and it is very very
> frustrating. I can HTML and that's it. I desperately want to develop the
> skills but whenever I try on my own, I hit the same wall as I do with
> SQL. I'm just bad at the deep dives into code and really need some
> honest help. I kind of had this kind of help at my old job but I got
> laid off on 11/30 and I don't think it's appropriate to ask them anymore.
>
> SQL experience: Only MS Access. I know it sucks, but it's all my boss
> "let" me use (it didn't occur to me for a while to pursue it on my own
> after she told me "no" for whatever odd reason she had). But! I can use
> that GUI like a champ. I used Access for all of my data crunching, my
> biggest record set was 600k so I didn't need anything more powerful. The
> reason I think I can learn SQL with just a bit of guidance is I know the
> concepts behind "where" and "group buys" and "unique," etc, but I miss a
> ; and get an error and then get frustrated.

GUI's only get you so far. At some point you will need to dive deeper to
get what you. I am mostly a self taught programmer(biologist by
training) so I understand the hill you are facing. The language I use is
Python, mainly because to me it made sense. For you it might be a good
choice as it is quite prevalent in the data analysis world. There are a
lot of places to turn to to learn how to use it. My suggestion for
seeing if it is something you can use would be to start here:

https://tutorial.djangogirls.org/en/

Go through at least the Introduction to Python part. The rest has to do
with Django, Web framework built using Python.

If you want an immersion into programming the events that Django Girls
put on are a good place to start:

https://djangogirls.org/events/

I have seen it action at my local Linux Fest and it is impressive.



>
> Purpose of the project:
>
> Eh, a bunch of things.
>
> - The project is to build my Tableau skills, for one. There are a lot of
> (work from home) jobs out there that call for Tableau skills and I know
> the best way to learn something is to do it. I think using the SQL
> database as a source will enable me to learn a lot of things in one stroke.
>
> - The project will also give me a product (eventually multiple) to embed
> on a website when I start looking for "clients," or what have you. Just
> starting a portfolio.
>
> - I have two projects, one of them is to analyze crime rates around the
> moon phases. Just a question my dad once posed as a science project that
> I blew off. Now seems kind of interesting to me to pursue. Will give me
> date experience, mapping if I want it, can go down to the precinct
> level, etc. The other is some data I've been collecting for about 15
> months on a pixel dragon game I play. I want to build a dashboard to
> manage my lair/income/value, etc. That is definitely where the SQL
> database comes in. I think the moon one is just data blending.
>
> - To give me intellectual stimulation because I am a nerd.
>
> Just a note, I'm a female gen x with a master's degree in library and
> information science. I took a database design class in grad school and
> it was the biggest waste of money and time. lol, I wish I'd had these
> project ideas then, I could have gone to the teacher with them.
>
> Meta
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com
> <mailto:adrian.klaver@aklaver.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 12/08/2016 03:46 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
>
>         Hi,
>
>         I'm looking for an online mentor, someone I can chat/email and ask
>         questions of. Maybe "meet up" and have a direct chat. I've been
>         trying
>         to get into SQL for years and I just... have... problems. It's very
>         frustrating and at this point in my career is going to keep me from
>         getting a new job. (I was just laid off on 11/30.)
>
>         I have a project in mind: I want to build an SQL db to house some
>         datasets and sit a tableau dashboard/storyboard on top. A data
>         engineer
>         at my old job said that would be his preferred method, and I
>         think it
>         would be a useful project to learn SQL.
>
>         I know this is the pgadmin support and not a postgres, but I'm
>         technically going to be using pgadmin so it's tangentially
>         related ;)
>
>
>     Actually this is the Postgres mailing list.
>
>     FYI, the pgAdmin list is here:
>
>     https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgadmin-support/
>     <https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgadmin-support/>
>
>     Though pgAdmin is often discussed on this list(pgsql-general).
>
>
>         Any input, even on the project?
>
>
>
>     What language(s) do you plan to program in?
>
>     What studying on SQL have you done?
>
>     What will the purpose of the project?
>
>
>
>         thanks,
>         meta
>
>
>
>     --
>     Adrian Klaver
>     adrian.klaver@aklaver.com <mailto:adrian.klaver@aklaver.com>
>
>


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On 12/8/2016 4:19 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
> - The project is to build my Tableau skills, for one. There are a lot
> of (work from home) jobs out there that call for Tableau skills and I
> know the best way to learn something is to do it. I think using the
> SQL database as a source will enable me to learn a lot of things in
> one stroke.

I don't know anything about Tableau, but I don't see anything on their
fluff-heavy website mentioning postgresql, rather, it all seems
cloud-centric and fluffy, they mention Microsoft SQL Server, Hadoop,
Oracle, 'web sources', CSV files, and others, but no mention of
Postgresql.   and, wow.  $1000 for a single seat license of the desktop
'personal' version, $2000 for the 'professional' version ?  yikes.

mostly it seems to be a tool that extracts data from pre-existing data
sources and crunches and presents it in 'executive dashboard' sort of
formats, it doesn't actually use the source database as anything other
than a place to fetch from.

pgadmin is just a database administration tool, its one way of managing
databases, creating and modifying table structures, etc, but its not
really suitable for production data entry and stuff, for that you'd
normally have application software, or use ETL tools to bulk load data
from other sources, etc.



--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

On 12/08/2016 04:39 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 12/8/2016 4:19 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
>> - The project is to build my Tableau skills, for one. There are a lot
>> of (work from home) jobs out there that call for Tableau skills and I
>> know the best way to learn something is to do it. I think using the
>> SQL database as a source will enable me to learn a lot of things in
>> one stroke.
>
> I don't know anything about Tableau, but I don't see anything on their
> fluff-heavy website mentioning postgresql, rather, it all seems

http://onlinehelp.tableau.com/current/pro/desktop/en-us/help.htm#examples_postgresql.html

> cloud-centric and fluffy, they mention Microsoft SQL Server, Hadoop,
> Oracle, 'web sources', CSV files, and others, but no mention of
> Postgresql.   and, wow.  $1000 for a single seat license of the desktop
> 'personal' version, $2000 for the 'professional' version ?  yikes.

I have taken a glance at:

http://docs.redash.io/en/latest/

which at least is free and Open Source.
>
> mostly it seems to be a tool that extracts data from pre-existing data
> sources and crunches and presents it in 'executive dashboard' sort of
> formats, it doesn't actually use the source database as anything other
> than a place to fetch from.
>
> pgadmin is just a database administration tool, its one way of managing
> databases, creating and modifying table structures, etc, but its not
> really suitable for production data entry and stuff, for that you'd
> normally have application software, or use ETL tools to bulk load data
> from other sources, etc.
>
>
>


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

I don't know anything about Tableau, but I don't see anything on their
fluff-heavy website mentioning postgresql, rather, it all seems

http://onlinehelp.tableau.com/current/pro/desktop/en-us/help.htm#examples_postgresql.html

ah, more digging... the Desktop Professional Edition ($2000) and the Server Edition ($10000 for 10 users) supports postgresql.  The Desktop Personal Edition ($999) only supports...  Microsoft Excel; Text files (like .csv files); Microsoft Access for Windows; JSON; Statistical files; Tableau Data Extract; OData; Google Sheets; Web Data Connector

-- 
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016, Adrian Klaver wrote:

> GUI's only get you so far. At some point you will need to dive deeper to
> get what you. I am mostly a self taught programmer(biologist by training)
> so I understand the hill you are facing. The language I use is Python,
> mainly because to me it made sense. For you it might be a good choice as
> it is quite prevalent in the data analysis world. There are a lot of
> places to turn to to learn how to use it. My suggestion for seeing if it
> is something you can use would be to start here:

+1 for Python

> Go through at least the Introduction to Python part. The rest has to do
> with Django, Web framework built using Python.

   Mike Driscoll has a blog (I don't recall the URL) and his Python 101 is a
very good introduction. There are also a lot of online tutorials.

   I would suggest starting by learning a general programming language
(specifically Python). That puts you in a learnable mindset. SQL is a
set-oriented language and is quite different from procedural, object
oriented, and functional languages.

   You can learn on your own, and help is readily available on various
maillists. I'm an ecologist who learned FORTRAN (mostly self-taught) in grad
school, C on my own, and then moved to Python on my own. If you're
interested in data analysis Python's the way to go. Your description of what
you want to accomplish can be achieved using three components: postgres (and
SQL as the language it uses), Python as the glue between the database back
end and the user interface, and a widget set (PyQt5 is a good one) for the
UI.

   If you want to develop a web-based application then replace the UI with
django.

Rich

On 12/08/2016 04:47 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
> I'll check out the django girls, thanks. There's also a group of women
> coders in DC who hold a lot of trainings and events. I'll see if they
> have a level I python coming up.
>
> You made me think about something about the GUI's: In my old job I used
> alteryx because we were working with datasets from 20M-250M. When I got
> laid off, I lost access to alteryx (unless I want to get a free trial).
> I asked a guy who's pretty familiar with my skillset what I should be
> using, R? He said to look for an open source gui/alteryx alternative. I
> found one called KNIME that I like a lot.

R is very much a viable language for statistical analysis, FYI, Python
has binding to R, in other words you can use Python to work with R.
Though if you go that route I would suggest Pandas:

http://pandas.pydata.org/


>
> But, what I'm gathering is, you think this is a crutch too. Will Python
> enable me to do the same things that I do with that kind of big data
> processing program? Should I be aiming for that as the ultimate rather
> than "mastering" KNIME (or whatever, just looking to design my
> curriculum). At my old job when I asked the same guy about SQL and how
> some of the coding bits we did in the tool configuration looked like
> SQL, he said alteryx is SQL on crack.
>
> I need SOMETHING to use for analysis for the tests I'm going to have to
> take when I job hunt so I'm exploring KNIME right now and doing the data
> manipulation into what I'd do in access for analysis. I know, I need
> stats too. You were educated as a biologist? I was educated as a
> pianist, writer, and historian, lol. I have a lot to learn.

There is nothing wrong with GUI's per se, it is just that you often are
constrained by whatever tools the developers provide. They are good way
to start though, especially if they give you the ability to see what
they are passing to the datasource. Then you can learn as you work.

>
> However, we're veering away from postgres, which may not be appropriate
> on the forum. I'd like to continue the conversation, though.

Hey, if gets you using Postgres all is good.




--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016, Metare Solve wrote:

> Will Python enable me to do the same things that I do with that kind of
> big data processing program?

   Yes.

> I need SOMETHING to use for analysis for the tests I'm going to have to
> take when I job hunt so I'm exploring KNIME right now and doing the data
> manipulation into what I'd do in access for analysis. I know, I need stats
> too. You were educated as a biologist? I was educated as a pianist,
> writer, and historian, lol. I have a lot to learn.

   While R is a great statistical and data analytical language (and can do
general programming, too), you'd be better off learning Python first and
looking beyond that only when you hit a dead end.

Rich

On 12/08/2016 05:14 PM, Metare Solve wrote:
> I'm happy with postgres. It came recommended by a girl whose skills I
> totally respect. When i told my old boss I was going to use it, she
> redirected me to MySQL because that's what our CRM used. I've always
> looked back at postgres, though, and for some reason like it,
> conceptually, better.

Something I did not mention before, you can use different languages
inside Postgres:

https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.5/static/xplang.html

https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.5/static/external-pl.html

In the end what you choose to work with is probably determined as much
by what makes sense to you as anything else.


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 17:08:41 -0800 (PST)
Rich Shepard <rshepard@appl-ecosys.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016, Adrian Klaver wrote:
>
> > GUI's only get you so far. At some point you will need to dive
> > deeper to get what you. I am mostly a self taught
> > programmer(biologist by training) so I understand the hill you are
> > facing. The language I use is Python, mainly because to me it made
> > sense. For you it might be a good choice as it is quite prevalent
> > in the data analysis world. There are a lot of places to turn to to
> > learn how to use it. My suggestion for seeing if it is something
> > you can use would be to start here:
>
> +1 for Python
>
> > Go through at least the Introduction to Python part. The rest has
> > to do with Django, Web framework built using Python.
>
>    Mike Driscoll has a blog (I don't recall the URL) and his Python
> 101 is a very good introduction. There are also a lot of online
> tutorials.
>
>    I would suggest starting by learning a general programming language
> (specifically Python). That puts you in a learnable mindset.

I absolutely concur that Python's a great starting point. It's easy, it
puts you in a learnable mindset, there are many directions you can
follow once you know Python, and Python knowledge might even get you a
job.

> SQL is a
> set-oriented language and is quite different from procedural, object
> oriented, and functional languages.

I think she could learn SQL concurrently with Python, as long as she
completely understands that they don't do anything the same way as each
other, and they're not even for the same purpose.

SteveT

Steve Litt
November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 07:47:56PM -0500, Metare Solve wrote:

> But, what I'm gathering is, you think this is a crutch too. Will Python
> enable me to do the same things that I do with that kind of big data
> processing program?

Yes and no. Python will enable you to do _way_ more (because
you tell it what to do) but at first you can't do much of
anything (because you need to learn programming in it first
and don't have buttons to click).

> Should I be aiming for that as the ultimate rather than "mastering" KNIME

Yes.

> I was educated as a pianist, writer,
> and historian, lol. I have a lot to learn.

Well, not really.

Pianist - you need to tell the piano / computer _exactly_
          what to do and there's a special notation for it
          in each realm

Writer - plan you strategy for evolving a story/solving a problem

Historian - diligently research what you don't know and don't
            know you don't know

The one thing cross access people typically don't bring in is
strong set-related skills. Maybe you can get a class on set
management from somewhere ?  Other than that try to see
things from your background.

Regards,
Karsten
--
GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net
E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD  4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 19:19:27 -0500
Metare Solve <solvemetare@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, I got on so many lists yesterday. I'm really not that dense.
>
> I have absolutely no language programming skills and it is very very
> frustrating. I can HTML and that's it. I desperately want to develop
> the skills but whenever I try on my own, I hit the same wall as I do
> with SQL. I'm just bad at the deep dives into code and really need
> some honest help.

I've written two books on Rapid Learning. You can learn this stuff, and
learn it a lot faster than most people think you can (depending on your
beliefs), but please understand you're not going to be proficient at
several programming languages and SQL and Postgres in two weeks. What
you're trying to do requires you to make a real committment over a much
longer time than a couple weeks, and you should not delay further
employment until you've learned programming, SQL, and Postgres.

[snip]


> The reason I think I can learn SQL with just a bit of
> guidance is I know the concepts behind "where" and "group buys" and
> "unique," etc, but I miss a ; and get an error and then get
> frustrated.

Remember above I mentioned your beliefs as an energizer or retardant to
your learning? If errors get you frustrated, you must either change
your beliefs to believe that errors, even those caused by a silly
syntax mistake like a missing ';', are just part of the process: Fix
them and move on. If you cannot adopt that belief, you'll never succeed
in programming of any kind. Fortunately, most beliefs are fairly easy
to change.

>
> Purpose of the project:
>
> Eh, a bunch of things.
>
> - The project is to build my Tableau

[snip]

> - The project will also give me a product [snip] portfolio.

[snip]

>
> - I have two projects, one of them is to analyze crime rates around
> the moon phases. Just a question my dad once posed as a science
> project that I blew off. Now seems kind of interesting to me to
> pursue. Will give me date experience, mapping if I want it, can go
> down to the precinct level, etc. The other is some data I've been
> collecting for about 15 months on a pixel dragon game I play. I want
> to build a dashboard to manage my lair/income/value, etc. That is
> definitely where the SQL database comes in. I think the moon one is
> just data blending.

I doubt that crime rate analysis and a dragon game will give you
sufficient motivation for the large amount of work that will be
required to learn all of this.

>
> - To give me intellectual stimulation because I am a nerd.

Yeah, that'll do it.

>
> Just a note, I'm a female gen x with a master's degree in library and
> information science. I took a database design class in grad school
> and it was the biggest waste of money and time.

A whole heck of a lot of college courses are a waste of time. I'm
writing a series of books related to this right now.

I think you need to decide how serious you are about this. If you're
serious enough to make the committment it requires, please keep me in
the loop. Also, as somebody else already mentioned in this thread, if
you're serious about it, revise your email communications to answer
specific questions right below the questions, and delete any context
material not closely related to what you're writing back. Top posting
is great for corporate communication, where the priority is CYA. But
it's a lousy way of conducting question/answer/question/answer type
communication: You need interleave posting with scrupulous snipping of
unrelated material for that.

SteveT

December 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21