Обсуждение: COCOMO & Indians

Hi, Pgsql-hackers.

We would like to obtain your opinion on these two questions:


1) We wanna append possibilities into Postgres engine, and wanna get top estimation for
size of code, cost and time of implementation.
1.1) We divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in already written
code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to
'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation
of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping
source code is possiblle)
1.2) We calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo

How relevant is this estimation ?


2) We are captivated by price of Indians,
we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians,
we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor
(i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway).

What requirements should satisfy code, written by Indians, to be in next version of Postgres ?



Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:43 AM, Dmitry Turin
<dmitry.turin@belarusbank.minsk.by> wrote:
> We would like to obtain your opinion on these two questions:

This is the wrong place to do it.

> 2) We are captivated by price of Indians,
> we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians,
> we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor
> (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway).

Did you really just say that?

> (SQL50, HTML60)

Because it seems that you haven't got the hint yet, I'll just say it
frankly: No one really cares about your desired additions to Postgres.

-Jonah

Do we really need this kind of discussion here?


On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:43 PM, Sreejesh O S <sreejeshos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Dmitry Turin
> <dmitry.turin@belarusbank.minsk.by> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Pgsql-hackers.
>>
>> We would like to obtain your opinion on these two questions:
>>
>>
>> 1) We wanna append possibilities into Postgres engine, and wanna get top
>> estimation for
>> size of code, cost and time of implementation.
>> 1.1) We divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in
>> already written
>> code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be
>> similar to
>> 'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than
>> implementation
>> of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create
>> function', and coping
>> source code is possiblle)
>> 1.2) We calculate cost and time by COCOMO
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo
>>
>> How relevant is this estimation ?
>>
>>
>> 2) We are captivated by price of Indians,
>> we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians,
>
> How do you identify that the code written by Indians is low in quality ? Do
> you subcontracted to an Indian company or so ?
>>
>> we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian
>> subcontractor
>> (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway).
>>
>>
>> What requirements should satisfy code, written by Indians, to be in next
>> version of Postgres ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
>> To make changes to your subscription:
>> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
>
>



--   Ibrar Ahmed  EnterpriseDB   http://www.enterprisedb.com

Hi, Jonah and Ibrar.

> This is the wrong place to do it.

Seggest other place.

>> 2) We are captivated by price of Indians,
>> we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians,
>> we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor
>> (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway).
> Did you really just say that?

My letters are perlustrated by bank security command (team).

> it seems that you haven't got the hint yet

Already done. Current results is the following:
A1) cost in US is above cost in India in 3 time (i.e. coefficient is 3),
coefficient was obtained as expert estimation independently (of digits below).
A2) avarage in India is nearly 50 000$, avarage in US is nearly 150 000$.
Much dispersion (range) of prices (dispersion for India is bigger).
Both country informs, that cost in Europe is above cost in US.
A3) Contributor from Pg informs, that cost is 50 000 euro, i.e. 75 000$.

We interpret in following way:
B1) We can pack into 75 000, if we will seach developers enough long time,
we can get developers just now, if we pay twice (i.e. 75*2=150)
B2) therefore cost in India is increased twice, i.e. actual cost is 25 000
B3) We have no reasons to believe US, probably real developers will be in India

>Do we really need this kind of discussion here?

Bosses do not like dispersion.
Besides this, 50 000 itself seems very much for India to be math expectation.



Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)

>> This is the wrong place to do it.
> Seggest other place.

No.  This topic is off-topic for the mailing list.  When someone
brings up an issue that is off-topic, it is not our job to find them
another place to discuss it.

...Robert

Hi, Robert.

>>> This is the wrong place to do it.
>> Seggest other place.
> This topic is off-topic for the mailing list.

I feel strong desire to recall you, that Pg has no concreate instructions till now
how to hire for appending features into engine.

And of cource, there is no usefull recomendations to orientate on market.

P.S.
I agree to continue discussion about features of site only in other mailing list,
if you just want.


Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)

Hello Dmitry,

you are really on wrong place.

You have to accept, so your proposals are not interesting for this
community. Because PostgreSQL is under BSD licence, you can do own
project based on PostgreSQL source code. There you can test all your
ideas - it should not be first similar project -  but you cannot
expect so you will get some active programmers here - first you have
to show some real product, real project, and then you can expect some
interest. Without it, nobody will be respect you and accept your
proposals.

Regards
Pavel Stehule




2008/12/11 Dmitry Turin <dmitry.turin@belarusbank.minsk.by>:
> Hi, Jonah and Ibrar.
>
>> This is the wrong place to do it.
>
> Seggest other place.
>
>>> 2) We are captivated by price of Indians,
>>> we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians,
>>> we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor
>>> (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway).
>> Did you really just say that?
>
> My letters are perlustrated by bank security command (team).
>
>> it seems that you haven't got the hint yet
>
> Already done. Current results is the following:
> A1) cost in US is above cost in India in 3 time (i.e. coefficient is 3),
> coefficient was obtained as expert estimation independently (of digits below).
> A2) avarage in India is nearly 50 000$, avarage in US is nearly 150 000$.
> Much dispersion (range) of prices (dispersion for India is bigger).
> Both country informs, that cost in Europe is above cost in US.
> A3) Contributor from Pg informs, that cost is 50 000 euro, i.e. 75 000$.
>
> We interpret in following way:
> B1) We can pack into 75 000, if we will seach developers enough long time,
> we can get developers just now, if we pay twice (i.e. 75*2=150)
> B2) therefore cost in India is increased twice, i.e. actual cost is 25 000
> B3) We have no reasons to believe US, probably real developers will be in India
>
>>Do we really need this kind of discussion here?
>
> Bosses do not like dispersion.
> Besides this, 50 000 itself seems very much for India to be math expectation.
>
>
>
> Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
>

Hi, Pavel.

> you have to show some real product, real project

Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.

No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
Budget for implementation is part of business solution.



Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)

2008/12/11 Dmitry Turin <dmitry.turin@belarusbank.minsk.by>:
> Hi, Pavel.
>
>> you have to show some real product, real project
>
> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
>
> No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
> Budget for implementation is part of business solution.

I though some different, First you have to show real code, some
working prototype.

And if you really would to collaborate with as, you have to accept so:

develop process is based on smaller proposals, every proposal is
discussed and have to be accepted. If nobody discuss with you, it's
signal, so there isn't real interest. So you have to open own open
source project.

Pavel

>
>
>
> Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
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>

Hi, Pavel.

>> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
> I though some different, First you have to show real code

"show read code" before hiring

> develop process is based

I'm not intersting process of development in pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org now -
i'm interesting method to estimate lines and time.
If you don't like my proposals, you can imply other proposals behind.
I assume, PMs can be not here (in list), as well as (nominal) PMs here can not use methods
and work at random.

Let's leave my SQL5, and come back to topic: 1.1) We divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in
alreadywritten 
code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to
'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation
of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping
source code is possiblle) 1.2) We calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo
How relevant is this estimation ?


Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)

Hi, Pavel.

Let me replace "We" by "Somebody" for your comprehension.

>> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
> I though some different, First you have to show real code

"show read code" before hiring

> develop process is based

I'm not intersting process of development in pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org now -
i'm interesting method to estimate lines and time.
If you don't like my proposals, you can imply other proposals behind.
I assume, PMs can be not here (in list), as well as (nominal) PMs here can not use methods
and work at random.

Let's leave my SQL5, and come back to topic: 1.1) Somebody divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues
inalready written 
code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to
'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation
of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping
source code is possiblle) 1.2) Somebody calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo
How relevant is this estimation ?


Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60)

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 15:20 +0200, Dmitry Turin wrote:
> Hi, Pavel.
> 
> > you have to show some real product, real project
> 
> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
> 
> No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
> Budget for implementation is part of business solution.

Pavel, you are most likely talking to a robot.

I suspect that somebody is trying a Turing test on us :P


-------------
Hannu

2008/12/11 Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net>:
> On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 15:20 +0200, Dmitry Turin wrote:
>> Hi, Pavel.
>>
>> > you have to show some real product, real project
>>
>> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
>>
>> No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
>> Budget for implementation is part of business solution.
>
> Pavel, you are most likely talking to a robot.
>
> I suspect that somebody is trying a Turing test on us :P

please, ask Zdenek about my identity :)

My English is terrible. I forgot an base from school, and now, all my
reading is c source codes only.

Next year will be lot of free time, so I hope so my English will be
better. It's terrible when I have to explain some. But on basic school
I had to learn Russian (a in this time nobody likes Russian - so my
language skills are bad).

Pavel



>
>
> -------------
> Hannu
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
>

2008/12/11 Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net>:
> On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 15:20 +0200, Dmitry Turin wrote:
>> Hi, Pavel.
>>
>> > you have to show some real product, real project
>>
>> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
>>
>> No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
>> Budget for implementation is part of business solution.
>
> Pavel, you are most likely talking to a robot.
>
> I suspect that somebody is trying a Turing test on us :P

please, ask Zdenek about my identity :)

My English is terrible. I forgot an base from school, and now, all my
reading is c source codes only.

Next year will be lot of free time, so I hope so my English will be
better. It's terrible when I have to explain some. But on basic school
I had to learn Russian (a in this time nobody likes Russian - so my
language skills are bad).

Pavel



>
>
> -------------
> Hannu
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
>

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 16:48 +0100, Pavel Stehule wrote:
> 2008/12/11 Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net>:
> > On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 15:20 +0200, Dmitry Turin wrote:
> >> Hi, Pavel.
> >>
> >> > you have to show some real product, real project
> >>
> >> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
> >>
> >> No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
> >> Budget for implementation is part of business solution.
> >
> > Pavel, you are most likely talking to a robot.
> >
> > I suspect that somebody is trying a Turing test on us :P
> 
> please, ask Zdenek about my identity :)

Actually I was thinking that "Turin" is a clever name for a Turing test
machine .

> My English is terrible. I forgot an base from school, and now, all my
> reading is c source codes only.
> 
> Next year will be lot of free time, so I hope so my English will be
> better. It's terrible when I have to explain some. But on basic school
> I had to learn Russian (a in this time nobody likes Russian - so my
> language skills are bad).

--------------
Hannu

2008/12/11 Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net>:
> On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 16:48 +0100, Pavel Stehule wrote:
>> 2008/12/11 Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net>:
>> > On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 15:20 +0200, Dmitry Turin wrote:
>> >> Hi, Pavel.
>> >>
>> >> > you have to show some real product, real project
>> >>
>> >> Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known.
>> >>
>> >> No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution.
>> >> Budget for implementation is part of business solution.
>> >
>> > Pavel, you are most likely talking to a robot.
>> >
>> > I suspect that somebody is trying a Turing test on us :P
>>
>> please, ask Zdenek about my identity :)
>
> Actually I was thinking that "Turin" is a clever name for a Turing test
> machine .

oh, I pass "to".

:) or some assertive man


>
>> My English is terrible. I forgot an base from school, and now, all my
>> reading is c source codes only.
>>
>> Next year will be lot of free time, so I hope so my English will be
>> better. It's terrible when I have to explain some. But on basic school
>> I had to learn Russian (a in this time nobody likes Russian - so my
>> language skills are bad).
>
> --------------
> Hannu
>
>
>