Обсуждение: Which CMS/Ecommerce/Shopping cart ?

hi,

> Except for Drupal's partial support, I cant find any which has a
sizeable
> deployment and community size behind it. Spree is a new RoR based
system,
> that would obviously work with PG, but doesnt have a sizeable deployment
> base.
>

Drupal + Ubercart + a ton of their modules work great. It is what drives:

http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
http://www.postgresql.us
http://www.fossexperts.com/
http://www.commandprompt.com/portal



--
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   Consulting, Development, Support, Training
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   The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

On Wed, 2010-07-28 at 22:37 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> Could you point me to any deployments of Drupal + Ubercart  +
> Postgres ?

Did you not see the links below?

>
>
>
>         Drupal + Ubercart + a ton of their modules work great. It is
>         what drives:
>
>         http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
>         http://www.postgresql.us
>         http://www.fossexperts.com/
>         http://www.commandprompt.com/portal
>
>
>
>         --
>         PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>           Consulting, Development, Support, Training
>           503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>           The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
>
>

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

Could you point me to any deployments of Drupal + Ubercart  + Postgres ? 

yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable. 

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
> demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the
> postgresql _community_ websites themselves.
>
Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be asking in
#drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the Drupal forums.


> This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge
> opposition to have anything to do with PG in the whole CMS/e-store
> community. In fact I even saw a request to eliminate postgresql
> support in Drupal 7 (that was taken care of by the valiant efforts of
> the PG community) : http://drupal.org/node/337146

Yes, I know. I was part of that. I would note that topic was 2 years ago
and has since long died.


> Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal,
> Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments. Again, it is
> relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote
> significantly worse performance because of the suboptimal way that

Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.

>  Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
> http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
> There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since -
> please correct me if I am wrong.
>
You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is no
reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.

I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting great
performance but then again I know enough to tune both Drupal, PHP and
PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not saying you can't).


> What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?

That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests. You can
also look for things like this:

http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/

That show the flexibility you get by using PostgreSQL.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:45:47 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> > yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
> > demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> > It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to
> > the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.
> >
> Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be
> asking in #drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the
> Drupal forums.

Well he will spend most of the time filtering people bashing
postgres there.

> > Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of
> > Drupal, Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments.
> > Again, it is relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks
> > which denote significantly worse performance because of the
> > suboptimal way that

> Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.

> >  Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
> > http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
> > There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever
> > since - please correct me if I am wrong.

> You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
> consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is
> no reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.

> I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting
> great performance but then again I know enough to tune both
> Drupal, PHP and PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not
> saying you can't).

I'm happy with PostgreSQL and Drupal too and right now I didn't have
to get too worried about performances.

D7 should support many things that makes more sense to use Postgres.
I had to tweak D5 and D6 core to make it work with Postgres as I
needed... the problem is it takes a lot of time to see postgres
related patch get into core.
Modules that are worth to use generally have reasonable maintainer,
fixes and release are much faster.

Still I'd say that if you don't have any specific reason to use
postgresql (you have to access data on another app using postgres,
you need some special feature (full text, GIS), you've a lot of
writes to the DB...) would be a better choice if you had equal
knowledge of both.

Are there companies that offer drupal/postgres tuning?

> That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
> MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests.
> You can also look for things like this:
>
> http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/

Schemas in postgres with drupal are great.

using:
http://www.webthatworks.it/d1/content/howto-duplicating-schema-postgresql
and
http://www.webthatworks.it/d1/content/excluding-some-tables-data-backup-including-their-schema
makes a breeze to duplicate sites.
And you can still conserve all triggers pk, fk, on duplicate
cascade...

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> Are there companies that offer drupal/postgres tuning?
>

I am quite sure that Command Prompt would be happy and fully prepared to
sell you Drupal + PostgreSQL tuning services.  We also have some
projects around it, and I'm sure other consulting companies or
individuals do too.  I'd predict that if you sent a message to
pgsql-jobs saying you're looking to hire someone for that sort of work,
you'd get a stack of responses from qualified people in the PostgreSQL
community.

--
Greg Smith  2ndQuadrant US  Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com   www.2ndQuadrant.us

On Wed, 2010-07-28 at 22:37 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> Could you point me to any deployments of Drupal + Ubercart  +
> Postgres ?

Did you not see the links below?

>
>
>
>         Drupal + Ubercart + a ton of their modules work great. It is
>         what drives:
>
>         http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
>         http://www.postgresql.us
>         http://www.fossexperts.com/
>         http://www.commandprompt.com/portal
>
>
>
>         --
>         PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>           Consulting, Development, Support, Training
>           503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>           The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
>
>

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

the one drupal programmer that programmed the system quit to do other things
multi-threaded issues..integration with external security..
and/or anything critical / mildly useful will send you into support h*ll
 
one stock form with no integration with clients database or j2ee server hosted only on apache is all you can hope for..
 
why not write it yourself?
Martin Gainty
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> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Which CMS/Ecommerce/Shopping cart ?
> From: jd@commandprompt.com
> To: sss@clearsenses.com
> CC: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:45:47 -0700
>
> On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> > yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
> > demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> > It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the
> > postgresql _community_ websites themselves.
> >
> Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be asking in
> #drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the Drupal forums.
>
>
> > This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge
> > opposition to have anything to do with PG in the whole CMS/e-store
> > community. In fact I even saw a request to eliminate postgresql
> > support in Drupal 7 (that was taken care of by the valiant efforts of
> > the PG community) : http://drupal.org/node/337146
>
> Yes, I know. I was part of that. I would note that topic was 2 years ago
> and has since long died.
>
>
> > Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal,
> > Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments. Again, it is
> > relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote
> > significantly worse performance because of the suboptimal way that
>
> Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.
>
> > Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
> > http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
> > There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since -
> > please correct me if I am wrong.
> >
> You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
> consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is no
> reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.
>
> I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting great
> performance but then again I know enough to tune both Drupal, PHP and
> PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not saying you can't).
>
>
> > What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?
>
> That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
> MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests. You can
> also look for things like this:
>
> http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/
>
> That show the flexibility you get by using PostgreSQL.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
> --
> PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
> Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
> Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
> http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

---

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On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 00:36 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply
> demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the
> postgresql _community_ websites themselves.
>
Well you are kind of asking in the wrong place. You should be asking in
#drupal, #drupal-support, #drupal-ubercart or in the Drupal forums.


> This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge
> opposition to have anything to do with PG in the whole CMS/e-store
> community. In fact I even saw a request to eliminate postgresql
> support in Drupal 7 (that was taken care of by the valiant efforts of
> the PG community) : http://drupal.org/node/337146

Yes, I know. I was part of that. I would note that topic was 2 years ago
and has since long died.


> Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal,
> Ubercart, etc was being used for such deployments. Again, it is
> relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote
> significantly worse performance because of the suboptimal way that

Latest 6.x release and latest Ubercart release.

>  Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
> http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
> There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since -
> please correct me if I am wrong.
>
You should read that "whole" blog. PostgreSQL does very well in
consideration of the environment. I would also note that there is no
reference to whether or not he tuned PostgreSQL or not.

I have zero problems running Drupal with PostgreSQL and getting great
performance but then again I know enough to tune both Drupal, PHP and
PostgreSQL. Most people can't say that (I am not saying you can't).


> What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?

That is a tough one. I mean, prove it to him. Set up Drupal with
MySQL/Innodb and setup Drupal with PostgreSQL and do some tests. You can
also look for things like this:

http://www.commandprompt.com/blogs/joshua_drake/2010/07/multiple_drupal_installations_single_login_10_steps/

That show the flexibility you get by using PostgreSQL.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:56:56 -0400
Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:

> Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> > Are there companies that offer drupal/postgres tuning?

> I am quite sure that Command Prompt would be happy and fully
> prepared to sell you Drupal + PostgreSQL tuning services.  We also
> have some projects around it, and I'm sure other consulting
> companies or individuals do too.  I'd predict that if you sent a
> message to pgsql-jobs saying you're looking to hire someone for
> that sort of work, you'd get a stack of responses from qualified
> people in the PostgreSQL community.

Sure. What I haven't been able to spot are drupal companies that do
drupal tuning when it is running with postgres.

Of course here on pg ml is not hard to find companies that won't
refuse to tune postgres even if you use it for drupal ;)

BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 07:04 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

> BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
> benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

Django was originally developed for Postgres but really, they are wholly
different beasts.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

hi ,

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 22:24:07 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 07:04 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
>
> > BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
> > benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

> Django was originally developed for Postgres but really, they are
> wholly different beasts.

You're right. It would be nice to see benchmark of any cms developed
with Django on postgresql and mysql.
I tried to find benchmark of Plone on postgres vs mysql.

I'd tend to think (and I may be wrong) that as a rule of thumb,
being everything else equal, mysql is more suited to "commodity" cms
just because it is easier to find coupled with php in hosting (and
this reflects on communities etc...).

Still it would be nice to put the myth of mysql is better on cms,
since they are read most apps, to rest too.

But then... there are no popular [anything but php] cms but there
are a lot of [anything but php] web framework.

You start with a pre-packaged web application that looks like a
framework, then you start to do custom code, then you start to have
more impedance mismatch...
The more you've to code, the more you will prefer a framework and
postgres... but if you've coded enough it means you can afford to
code your own web application out of a framework and have your own
box (no hosting).

BTW which one of the example you posted uses ubercart?
I'd be curious about how many concurrent operation on the basket does
http://www.commandprompt.com/portal/
have...

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 07:04 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

> BTW up to my memory Django suggest postgres. I haven't seen any
> benchmark of Django with pg vs mysql.

Django was originally developed for Postgres but really, they are wholly
different beasts.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On 7/28/2010 3:06 PM Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.

Both xTuple web sites (www.xtuple.com and www.xtuple.org) run on Drupal/Postgres, and our xChange app store runs on
ubercart.

BTW, we've also integrated Drupal with the CRM and sales functionality in xTuple - www.xtuple.com/webportal.

We've had zero issues with Postgres support in Drupal.

Cheers,
Ned





> This may sound irrelevant, but please do understand the huge opposition to have anything to do with PG in the whole
CMS/e-storecommunity. In fact I even saw a request to eliminate postgresql support in Drupal 7 (that was taken care of
bythe valiant efforts of the PG community) : http://drupal.org/node/337146 
>
> Plus, it would have been interesting to know which version of Drupal, Ubercart, etc was being used for such
deployments.Again, it is relevant because of certain (older) benchmarks which denote significantly worse performance
becauseof the suboptimal way that Drupal integrates with Postgresql :
http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/
> There has been _nothing_ to disprove the above numbers, ever since - please correct me if I am wrong.
>
> What does a person making a case for Postgres do in this situation ?
>
> thanks
>
> <http://mikkel.hoegh.org/blog/2008/oct/13/drupal-database-performance-mysql-postgresql/>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com <mailto:jd@commandprompt.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Wed, 2010-07-28 at 22:37 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
>      > Could you point me to any deployments of Drupal + Ubercart  +
>      > Postgres ?
>
>     Did you not see the links below?
>
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >         Drupal + Ubercart + a ton of their modules work great. It is
>      >         what drives:
>      >
>      > http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
>      > http://www.postgresql.us
>      > http://www.fossexperts.com/
>      > http://www.commandprompt.com/portal
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >         --
>      >         PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>      >           Consulting, Development, Support, Training
>      >           503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>      >           The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
>      >
>      >
>
>     --
>     PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
>     Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
>     Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
>     http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt
>
>

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 11:57 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

>
> What really, really hurts me is this - come Postgres 9.0 you will have
> the most amazing DB software in the open source community. I (and
> millions of small time developers like me) wont be able to leverage
> that - because our clients will still demand <insert well
> known/commercially supported web software>, which have no good support
> for postgres.
>
That is certainly a valid concern with Drupal. However I think you are
possibly looking at this the wrong way. If you look at Rails, Django,
Turbo Gears, Catalyst, Groovy+Grails they all have excellent PostgreSQL
support.

What I find is that many "PHP" people that build software are still very
much MySQL folks and yes that is unfortunate.

I would note that all your concerns are resolved in Drupal 7. The real
question is when they will manage to get that out the door.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 08:10 -0400, Ned Lilly wrote:
> On 7/28/2010 3:06 PM Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> > yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> > It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.
>
> Both xTuple web sites (www.xtuple.com and www.xtuple.org) run on Drupal/Postgres, and our xChange app store runs on
ubercart.
>
> BTW, we've also integrated Drupal with the CRM and sales functionality in xTuple - www.xtuple.com/webportal.
>
> We've had zero issues with Postgres support in Drupal.

The issue isn't Drupal. It is modules. There are a lot of popular
modules that do not work with PostgreSQL (Lightbox for example).

The google checkout module for Ubercart didn't work either until
relatively recently.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:52:46 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> The issue isn't Drupal. It is modules. There are a lot of popular
> modules that do not work with PostgreSQL (Lightbox for example).

> The google checkout module for Ubercart didn't work either until
> relatively recently.

I'd say the opposite but I'll wait to test more D7.
Core takes ages to agree on what should be done to fix bugs for
Postgres without affecting even the "feelings" of MySQL developers.

Modules may have more problems but fixing them is generally trivial
and generally upstream is quick to integrate the fix.

The problem for core is maintaining your patches till and if they
fix the bug.

I agree that PHP and MySQL are a perverse match.

Still if he plans to deploy stuff as "commodity" software they are a
necessary evil.
The problem arise when you're in-between custom and RAD.
Anyway more python/django based cms are flourishing... and given
Django originally supported DB was Postgres...
http://www.django-cms.org/ [1]

Migration of Onion from Drupal/Mysql -> Django/Postgresql is
emblematic.

[1] I think I could make a quick benchmark if possible on postgresql
and mysql

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

This touches on a question I would love to be able to answer

Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the OpenSource community?  As a database I find its
architecturewith multiple underlying engines and other quirks to be rather dubious.  Then there is the issue of
commerciallicenses and exactly when you must have those and what it will really cost.  Yet it is pretty ubiquitous.
Howcome?  Why isn't postgresql more on developer's minds when they think of OS databases?  Amazon cloud has great
scalableMySQL support but apparently not postgreql.  Why?   Is there something about postgresql that is bugging all
thesepeople or what? 

- samantha

On Jul 29, 2010, at 10:16 AM, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:52:46 -0700
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
>> The issue isn't Drupal. It is modules. There are a lot of popular
>> modules that do not work with PostgreSQL (Lightbox for example).
>
>> The google checkout module for Ubercart didn't work either until
>> relatively recently.
>
> I'd say the opposite but I'll wait to test more D7.
> Core takes ages to agree on what should be done to fix bugs for
> Postgres without affecting even the "feelings" of MySQL developers.
>
> Modules may have more problems but fixing them is generally trivial
> and generally upstream is quick to integrate the fix.
>
> The problem for core is maintaining your patches till and if they
> fix the bug.
>
> I agree that PHP and MySQL are a perverse match.
>
> Still if he plans to deploy stuff as "commodity" software they are a
> necessary evil.
> The problem arise when you're in-between custom and RAD.
> Anyway more python/django based cms are flourishing... and given
> Django originally supported DB was Postgres...
> http://www.django-cms.org/ [1]
>
> Migration of Onion from Drupal/Mysql -> Django/Postgresql is
> emblematic.
>
> [1] I think I could make a quick benchmark if possible on postgresql
> and mysql
>
> --
> Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
> http://www.webthatworks.it
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

On Jul 29, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:

> This touches on a question I would love to be able to answer
>
> Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the OpenSource community?  As a database I find its
architecturewith multiple underlying engines and other quirks to be rather dubious.  Then there is the issue of
commerciallicenses and exactly when you must have those and what it will really cost.  Yet it is pretty ubiquitous.
Howcome?  Why isn't postgresql more on developer's minds when they think of OS databases?  Amazon cloud has great
scalableMySQL support but apparently not postgreql.  Why?   Is there something about postgresql that is bugging all
thesepeople or what? 

MySQL is "the PHP database".

Low rent shared hosting targets primarily people hosting PHP apps. Most PHP apps target MySQL. So hosting companies
offerPHP and MySQL. 

Most PHP apps are aimed to run on low end shared hosting, where the only database available is likely to be MySQL, so
PHPapps target MySQL. 

Another issue is that it's apparently easier to deploy multi-tenant MySQL than PostgreSQL.

And yet another is the... lets just say "sloppy development style" of most PHP coders who've learned to use MySQL,
ratherthan SQL. That maps better onto the sloppy MySQL approach to data integrity than the PostgreSQL one. "0000-00-00"
isn'ta date and "" isn't an integer - unless you're a PHP coder using MySQL. These bugs in the apps, and similar ones
relatedto MySQL's rather special approach to SQL, also make it painful to add PostgreSQL support to an existing app
thatwas developed solely to target MySQL. 

Cheers,
  Steve

Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:
> Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> OpenSource community?

I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever fully
overcome that historical disadvantage.

            regards, tom lane

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 14:57 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:
> > Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> > OpenSource community?
>
> I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
> many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
> worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
> notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
> and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
> academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
> We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever fully
> overcome that historical disadvantage.

Yeah that is a tough one. I would note though, if you move out of PHP,
our community grows astronomically.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


>
>             regards, tom lane
>

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:57:04 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:

> Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:
> > Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> > OpenSource community?
>
> I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
> many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
> worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
> notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
> and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
> academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
> We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever
> fully overcome that historical disadvantage.

How popular is Visual Basic right now?
And even if it was more popular than C#... what kind of application
would you expect to find that start development right now in VB?

--
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 21:19 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:57:04 -0400
> Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>
> > Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:
> > > Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> > > OpenSource community?
> >
> > I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
> > many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
> > worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
> > notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
> > and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
> > academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
> > We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever
> > fully overcome that historical disadvantage.
>
> How popular is Visual Basic right now?
> And even if it was more popular than C#... what kind of application
> would you expect to find that start development right now in VB?

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On 10-07-29 02:57 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Samantha Atkins<sjatkins@mac.com>  writes:
>
>> Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
>> OpenSource community?
>>
> I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
> many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
> worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
> notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
> and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
> academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
> We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever fully
> overcome that historical disadvantage.
>
>             regards, tom lane
>
>

Postgres also had a reputation of being slow compared to MySQL.

This was due to a lot of really poor MySQL vs Postgres benchmarks
floating around in the early 2000's.  They generally tested stock
configurations (MySQL had a less restrictive out of the box
configuration) and they tended to test things like how fast can a single
client insert/update/delete data from a table.  Unsurprisingly, MySQL
won, as Postgres imposed all sorts of pesky behind the scenes protection
for your data that MySQL didn't worry about.

No one really tested it in a way that mattered, which was how the two
databases performed under concurrent load, where Postgres won hands down.

--
Brad Nicholson  416-673-4106
Database Administrator, Afilias Canada Corp.

  On 07/29/10 12:52 PM, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> Biggest example - Wordpress. Strictly mysql only. If I want to throw
> together a company blog + mailing list + SEO, I can get it done using
> Wordpress in a matter of hours.

Serendipity - http://www.s9y.org - a full featured blog server, in php,
that works great with Postgres.   BSD licensed, and IMHO, much cleaner
internally than Wordpress.   MUCH cleaner plugin architecture.

Shopping carts, company blogs, etc.  Popular pieces of software.

As common denominators go, that's pretty low.

Perhaps what is needed is a dumbed down version of Postgres.

My hobby horse.  MySQL supports regular expressions...  In a [rhymes
with rat's ass].  It "supports" a kind of tinker toy reduced set of
regular expressions.

But I guess nobody's complaining.

I just hope that Postgres keeps having enough support so that it can
continue to be developed.  Until Apple adopted Unix, it was basically
dead in the water.  Even then, it was probably iPod's that really kept
it alive.  But it's still alive.

I don't know.

John




On Jul 29, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

> If I want to throw together a company blog + mailing list + SEO, I
> can get it done using Wordpress in a matter of hours.
>
> Same for shopping carts, though there is no single canonical
> software that I can name - all of them are strictly or strongly
> MySQL only. These are restrictions that cannot (and should not)

> how bad postgres is as compared to mysql, in context of all the
> popular pieces of software out there.
>
>

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 11:57 +0530, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

>
> What really, really hurts me is this - come Postgres 9.0 you will have
> the most amazing DB software in the open source community. I (and
> millions of small time developers like me) wont be able to leverage
> that - because our clients will still demand <insert well
> known/commercially supported web software>, which have no good support
> for postgres.
>
That is certainly a valid concern with Drupal. However I think you are
possibly looking at this the wrong way. If you look at Rails, Django,
Turbo Gears, Catalyst, Groovy+Grails they all have excellent PostgreSQL
support.

What I find is that many "PHP" people that build software are still very
much MySQL folks and yes that is unfortunate.

I would note that all your concerns are resolved in Drupal 7. The real
question is when they will manage to get that out the door.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 08:10 -0400, Ned Lilly wrote:
> On 7/28/2010 3:06 PM Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:
> > yup I did. The reason why I wanted examples was to amply demonstrate,to clients, that postgresql is viable.
> > It is kinda weird if the only examples I have are restricted to the postgresql _community_ websites themselves.
>
> Both xTuple web sites (www.xtuple.com and www.xtuple.org) run on Drupal/Postgres, and our xChange app store runs on
ubercart.
>
> BTW, we've also integrated Drupal with the CRM and sales functionality in xTuple - www.xtuple.com/webportal.
>
> We've had zero issues with Postgres support in Drupal.

The issue isn't Drupal. It is modules. There are a lot of popular
modules that do not work with PostgreSQL (Lightbox for example).

The google checkout module for Ubercart didn't work either until
relatively recently.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> If you look at Rails, Django, Turbo Gears, Catalyst, Groovy+Grails they all have excellent PostgreSQL
> support.
>

Exactly.  If Ivan were building on a Rails or Java software platform,
this discussion of "why is PostgreSQL not well supported?"  wouldn't be
happening.  The Python stuff is still lagging behind those too a bit I
think, but not by much.  The PHP/PostgreSQL disconnect is really a
mystery to me given that's the only combination that's even got a whole
book written on it.

--
Greg Smith  2ndQuadrant US  Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com   www.2ndQuadrant.us

Samantha Atkins wrote:
> Amazon cloud has great scalable MySQL support but apparently not postgreql.  Why?

The perception is that MySQL has good built-in replication usable for
scaling up purposes, and therefore is suitable for cloud deployments.
Whereas the perception is that PostgreSQL has no such thing.  There's
enough truth in both positions to keep both perceptions alive, even
though neither is completely correct.  MySQL replication has some
serious limitations, and there are PostgreSQL replication solutions,
just not that ship with the software yet.

The pending 9.0 with obvious built-in replication is already shifting
how people are treating PostgreSQL for cloud deployments, a trend which
should just accelerate once the release comes out.

--
Greg Smith  2ndQuadrant US  Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com   www.2ndQuadrant.us

Brad Nicholson wrote:
> Postgres also had a reputation of being slow compared to MySQL.
> This was due to a lot of really poor MySQL vs Postgres benchmarks
> floating around in the early 2000's.

I think more of those were fair than you're giving them credit for.  For
many common loads, up until PG 8.1 came out--November 8.1--MySQL really
was faster.  That was the release with the killer read scalability
improvements, then 8.3 piled on again with all the write-heavy stuff
too.  MySQL 4 vs. PG 8.0?  MySQL won that fair and square sometimes.

--
Greg Smith  2ndQuadrant US  Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com   www.2ndQuadrant.us

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially
> in the OpenSource community?  As a database I find its
> architecture with multiple underlying engines and other
> quirks to be rather dubious.  Then there is the issue of
> commercial licenses and exactly when you must have those
> and what it will really cost.  Yet it is pretty

MySQL was available on Windows long before PostgreSQL.
MySQL has always been free for all uses, including
commercial use, for ISPs so it quickly became the database
that all ISPs/domain hosts provide and, therefore, a
popular choice for Web apps.

> ubiquitous.  How come?  Why isn't postgresql more on
> developer's minds when they think of OS databases?
> Amazon cloud has great scalable MySQL support but
> apparently not postgreql.  Why?   Is there something
> about postgresql that is bugging all these people or what?

My guess is that there are a lot of people who know of
MySQL who have never heard of PostgreSQL. Also, PostgreSQL
does not scale as well on Windows as it does on Linux/Unix.
I have talked to people who support 2,000 concurrent users
using PostgreSQL on Linux. I have been told that the limit
on Windows is about 300 concurrent users. I have no idea
how accurate that statement is. I share your surprise
because PostgreSQL is has a much more extensive feature set
than MySQL.

--
.Bill.

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 14:57 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:
> > Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> > OpenSource community?
>
> I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
> many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
> worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
> notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
> and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
> academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
> We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever fully
> overcome that historical disadvantage.

Yeah that is a tough one. I would note though, if you move out of PHP,
our community grows astronomically.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


>
>             regards, tom lane
>

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 21:19 +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:57:04 -0400
> Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>
> > Samantha Atkins <sjatkins@mac.com> writes:
> > > Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> > > OpenSource community?
> >
> > I think it's strictly historical.  The mysql bias you see in so
> > many web tools was established in the late 90s, a time when mysql
> > worked reasonably well (at least according to the mysql developers'
> > notion of "reasonably well") whereas postgres was still pretty slow
> > and buggy.  It took us a long time to get from the original
> > academically-oriented code to something of real production quality.
> > We're definitely competitive now, but I don't know if we'll ever
> > fully overcome that historical disadvantage.
>
> How popular is Visual Basic right now?
> And even if it was more popular than C#... what kind of application
> would you expect to find that start development right now in VB?

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
http://twitter.com/cmdpromptinc | http://identi.ca/commandprompt

> Why is MySQL so much more popular right now, especially in the
> OpenSource community?

This is not true in Japan. PostgreSQL and MySQL has been having even
share in many surveys.
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp

On 30 Jul 2010, at 2:25, Bill wrote:

> My guess is that there are a lot of people who know of
> MySQL who have never heard of PostgreSQL.

This is unfortunately still true.
Recently I've been going through a series of job applications at several companies and frequently the IT people I was
talkingto there didn't know Postgres, while they always knew MySQL, Oracle and MSSQL. Some even mistook it for
Progress,which I never heard of until about a year ago - apparently that's some old 4GL commercial database that's
stillin use in places. I had to explain that Postgres is an enterprise level database that's directly competing with
Oracleand MSSQL! 

That said, I've also been at several PHP shops that had switched over from MySQL to Postgres because MySQL didn't live
upto their expectations. 

This is of course by no means a representative measurement, but from my observations Postgres does seem to be on the
rise.There's still a ways to go to make potential users aware of its existence though. 

Alban Hertroys

--
If you can't see the forest for the trees,
cut the trees and you'll see there is no forest.


!DSPAM:737,4c52a8c2286211512421222!

On 29 Jul 2010, at 21:52, Sandeep Srinivasa wrote:

> So what am I driving at ?   If you have to time to spare or have the inclination, please please put out blog posts,
how-tos,guides which relate to usecases like putting up a blog, setting up an online shop, configuring a popular CRM
package,etc. rather than pure DB-centric information. Please put information out there on how to configure Drupal,
SugarCRM,Trac,   
> Yes, I know to RTFM - but then I see the buzz around MySQL and am swayed.

First, allow me to agree that more documentation about these things would be good.

You should realise though, that the difference in available documentation of such applications is also due to the
differencein size of both communities. There are lots and lots of people who deploy MySQL for their purposes, and some
writeabout how they did that. There are relatively few people who've done so for PostgreSQL, and some even wrote about
it,but to make up for the difference "we" need to do a lot more writing of articles than those MySQL folks. 

Alban Hertroys

--
If you can't see the forest for the trees,
cut the trees and you'll see there is no forest.


!DSPAM:737,4c52aa10286211691277456!

On 10-07-29 08:54 PM, Greg Smith wrote:
> Brad Nicholson wrote:
>> Postgres also had a reputation of being slow compared to MySQL.
>> This was due to a lot of really poor MySQL vs Postgres benchmarks
>> floating around in the early 2000's.
>
> I think more of those were fair than you're giving them credit for.

I'm sure some where, but I recall a lot that were not.

The main problems I recall is that they took the stock postgresql.conf
(which was far to restrictive) and measured it against a much better
MySQL config.  They then measured some unrealistic test for most
applications and declared MySQL the clear winner for everything and
Postgres slow as a dog.

It's one thing for database folks to look at that see the problems
and/or limitations with those sorts of tests.  But a lot of developers
were taking these to heart and siding with MySQL and slagging Postgres
as being slow - often unjustly.

> For many common loads, up until PG 8.1 came out--November 8.1--MySQL
> really was faster.  That was the release with the killer read
> scalability improvements, then 8.3 piled on again with all the
> write-heavy stuff too.  MySQL 4 vs. PG 8.0?  MySQL won that fair and
> square sometimes.
>

Oh, I agree that MySQL was faster for some stuff, but not everything.
Back in those days, I routinely saw web sites backed by MySQL 3.x
(forget the exact version) grind to an absolute halt under concurrent
access due to table level locking in MyISAM.  Moving those over to the
earlier branches of 7.x improved things drastically.

That said, I also saw the opposite, where MySQL was a lot faster than
Postgres.

--
Brad Nicholson  416-673-4106
Database Administrator, Afilias Canada Corp.

On 10-07-29 08:54 PM, Greg Smith wrote:
> Brad Nicholson wrote:
>> Postgres also had a reputation of being slow compared to MySQL.
>> This was due to a lot of really poor MySQL vs Postgres benchmarks
>> floating around in the early 2000's.
>
> I think more of those were fair than you're giving them credit for.
> For many common loads, up until PG 8.1 came out--November 8.1--MySQL
> really was faster.  That was the release with the killer read
> scalability improvements, then 8.3 piled on again with all the
> write-heavy stuff too.  MySQL 4 vs. PG 8.0?  MySQL won that fair and
> square sometimes.
>

oh, btw - I'm talking about MySQL 3.x w/MyISAM vs  Postgres 7.1/7.2 days.

By the time MySQL 4.0/PG 8.0 was around, I was long off MySQL.

--
Brad Nicholson  416-673-4106
Database Administrator, Afilias Canada Corp.

Bill wrote:
> I have been told that the limit on Windows is about 300 concurrent users.

It's actually a good bit worse than that unless you do some very
specific Windows tuning--125.  See the last entry at
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Running_%26_Installing_PostgreSQL_On_Native_Windows
for details.

Most PostgreSQL installations with a large number of connections benefit
from connection pooling though, which improves this situation
considerably.  If you think about it, the server can't actually process
more than a small multiple of its cores worth of useful work at a time
anyway.  Above that, you're just adding contention without increasing
total work accomplished.  So "how many connections does it support at
once?" is a metric of little value anyway.  I can easily generate a
workload that crushes a system with a single connection, or generate one
where connections spend so much time idle that you can scale to enormous
numbers of them.

--
Greg Smith  2ndQuadrant US  Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
greg@2ndQuadrant.com   www.2ndQuadrant.us

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 5:41 AM, Brad Nicholson
<bnichols@ca.afilias.info> wrote:
> On 10-07-29 08:54 PM, Greg Smith wrote:
>>
>> Brad Nicholson wrote:
>>>
>>> Postgres also had a reputation of being slow compared to MySQL.
>>> This was due to a lot of really poor MySQL vs Postgres benchmarks
>>> floating around in the early 2000's.
>>
>> I think more of those were fair than you're giving them credit for.
>
> I'm sure some where, but I recall a lot that were not.
>
> The main problems I recall is that they took the stock postgresql.conf
> (which was far to restrictive) and measured it against a much better MySQL
> config.  They then measured some unrealistic test for most applications and
> declared MySQL the clear winner for everything and Postgres slow as a dog.
>

I would like to point out that in general the opposite is probably
generally in effect at this point. For software dev that downloads
MySQL 5.1 and PG 8.4 and selects sane options PG will probably have a
significant advantage. MyISAM is dead.*  Innodb does not make much use
of fs caching, while PG depends on it. With a "detuned" instance PG
will likely have a significant advantage over Innodb for that reason.

*Pretend to be a developer and install MySQL on windows. You will
probably not get a MyISAM default.

--
Rob Wultsch
wultsch@gmail.com