Обсуждение: [GENERAL] Python versus Other Languages using PostgreSQL
Hello,
I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language. Yet, according to every benchmark I could find over the last couple of years, back-end languages like PHP, HHVM, and Node.JS outperform Python by 2x to 8x!
So here are my questions:
1) Why do the largest web applications that use PostgreSQL also use Python, even though Python is significantly slower than it's biggest competitors?
2) Can PostgreSQL just as easily be used with PHP or Node.js? If not, why not?
3) Can PostgreSQL be made to work seamlessly to take advantage of the superior performance of HHVM or Node.js?
I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language. Yet, according to every benchmark I could find over the last couple of years, back-end languages like PHP, HHVM, and Node.JS outperform Python by 2x to 8x!
So here are my questions:
1) Why do the largest web applications that use PostgreSQL also use Python, even though Python is significantly slower than it's biggest competitors?
2) Can PostgreSQL just as easily be used with PHP or Node.js? If not, why not?
3) Can PostgreSQL be made to work seamlessly to take advantage of the superior performance of HHVM or Node.js?
Thank you in advance!
~Paul
Thank you for the links. I'm glad there are other languages that are working with PostgreSQL. My question still remains though - why is it that all the largest web platforms that have used PostgreSQL *specifically* choose Python as their back-end language? Why are Postgres and Python so married, in the same way that Node.js is largely married to MondogDB?
On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:
On 05/08/2017 02:26 PM, Paul Hughes wrote:Hello,
I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as
their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end
language. Yet, according to every benchmark I could find over the last
couple of years, back-end languages like PHP, HHVM, and Node.JS
outperform Python by 2x to 8x!
Postgres does not really care what you use to pull data from it. There are many libraries across many languages that you can use.
On May 9, 2017, at 2:07 , Paul Hughes <paul@vivation.com> wrote:
Postgres might be a popular choice among Rails devs, but Ruby is not as popular among the big web platforms that choose Postgres.
Ahem.
AirBnB, Bloomberg, Crunchbase, Github, Groupon, Heroku, Hulu, Kickstarter, Scribd, Shopify, Slideshare, SoundCloud, Square, Twitch, Whitepages.
On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Paul Hughes <paul@vivation.com> wrote:
Hello,
I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language. Yet, according to every benchmark I could find over the last couple of years, back-end languages like PHP, HHVM, and Node.JS outperform Python by 2x to 8x!
This is a questionable and incomplete starting point starting with a vague assertion lacking a reasonable set of examples.
You are conflating languages (PHP, Python) with various environments in which they run (the Node.js runtime for Javascript and HHVM virtual machine for PHP/Hack), failing to provide version/implementation/acceleration information of the languages (Zend, PyPy,), and failing to state anything about the environment: Is it raw code or are we actually discussing framework performance? What are other requirements/constraints on the overall system?
Picking a single data-point (speed) of a single part of a system (back end language) is not typically informative. There is speed of development, availability of developers, feature sets, robustness, licensing, availability of commercial support, security issues and ability to integrate with other parts of a corporate environment to name just a few. The impact of the language speed may be minuscule compared to the impact of other aspects of the overall system. One could as easily ask, "Why do so many people use PHP when assembler is so much faster?"
If speed is the only requirement you can get a great boost in PostgreSQL by turning off fsync. Of course you may lose all your data in a crash but, hey, it's faster!
To quote our own illustrious Tom Lane:
"...Try to carry 500 people from Los Angeles to Tokyo in an F-15. No? Try to win a dogfight in a 747. No? But they both fly, so it must be useful to compare them... especially on the basis of the most simplistic test case you can think of. For extra points, use *only one* test case. Perhaps this paper can be described as "comparing an F-15 to a 747 on the basis of required runway length...".
To really determine the answer you would have to ask each one why they chose their specific combination of language(s) database, OS, hardware/VM, caching, pooling, etc.; what they would do differently in retrospect and also evaluate the validity of those decisions. For the most part we, here, can only guess.
So here are my questions:
1) Why do the largest web applications that use PostgreSQL also use Python, even though Python is significantly slower than it's biggest competitors?
See comments above.
2) Can PostgreSQL just as easily be used with PHP or Node.js? If not, why not?
Yes. We have PHP, Python, Ruby, C, Bash (via psql), Perl, LibreOffice, etc. directly connecting to our server. There is also client support for Java, .NET, Tcl, C++, ODBC, Erlang, Haskell, Lua, R, Smalltalk, ...
3) Can PostgreSQL be made to work seamlessly to take advantage of the superior performance of HHVM or Node.js?
See above.
Thank you in advance!~Paul
Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions. I've been out of the programming world for a long time, so I am back to being a newbie. I was told this is the place for newcomers to ask questions. I apologize if my questions did not contain the necessary sophistication or nuance for some to answer.
George, your answer makes the most sense. Thank you! You said:
>>Most cloud servers come preconfigured with some variation of either
the "LAMP" or "LAPP" stack: i.e. Linux, Apache, MySQL or Postgresql,
PHP or Python.
>>There needs to be a compelling *application* reason to install
something else: a JVM (or Apache-Tomcat vs regular Apache),
Ruby/Rails, Groovy/Grails, etc.
George, your answer makes the most sense. Thank you! You said:
>>Most cloud servers come preconfigured with some variation of either
the "LAMP" or "LAPP" stack: i.e. Linux, Apache, MySQL or Postgresql,
PHP or Python.
>>There needs to be a compelling *application* reason to install
something else: a JVM (or Apache-Tomcat vs regular Apache),
Ruby/Rails, Groovy/Grails, etc.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:54 AM, George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 14:26:02 -0700, Paul Hughes <paul@vivation.com>
wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as
>their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language.
>Yet, according to every benchmark I could find over the last couple of
>years, back-end languages like PHP, HHVM, and Node.JS outperform Python by
>2x to 8x!
>
>So here are my questions:
>
>1) Why do the largest web applications that use PostgreSQL also use Python,
>even though Python is significantly slower than it's biggest competitors?
Most cloud servers come preconfigured with some variation of either
the "LAMP" or "LAPP" stack: i.e. Linux, Apache, MySQL or Postgresql,
PHP or Python.
There needs to be a compelling *application* reason to install
something else: a JVM (or Apache-Tomcat vs regular Apache),
Ruby/Rails, Groovy/Grails, etc.
>2) Can PostgreSQL just as easily be used with PHP or Node.js? If not, why
>not?
Absolutely. The DBMS is (programming) language neutral - the only
requirement is that a client speak the wire protocol. That can be
done natively, or via a library/driver.
>3) Can PostgreSQL be made to work seamlessly to take advantage of the
>superior performance of HHVM or Node.js?
Not really sure what you're asking. The application running under
HHVM or node.js is completely separate from Postgresql.
Both PHP and Javascript (generically and for node.js specifically)
have libraries for Postgresql.
George
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Paul Hughes
Executive Director
Vivation International
Executive Director
Vivation International
1-800-514-8483
Adrian Klaver Wrote:
>>Many on this list(myself included) will want to know how you came to that conclusion and I am speaking as someone who uses Python, Django and Postgres.
I came to that conclusion when I saw a list of the top 15 websites (based on traffic). On that list, *all* of the sites that used PostgreSQL as their primary data store, also used Python as their primary back-end language. Those three sites are/were Yahoo, Instagram and Uber. 3 out of 3 is a pretty high statistical correlation when you're only talking about a sample of 15. Given that, my saying, "I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language.", was a fair observation. An observation is just that (one blind man feeling an elephant). Saying "I noticed that" is a *very* different thing than making an assertion.
>>Many on this list(myself included) will want to know how you came to that conclusion and I am speaking as someone who uses Python, Django and Postgres.
I came to that conclusion when I saw a list of the top 15 websites (based on traffic). On that list, *all* of the sites that used PostgreSQL as their primary data store, also used Python as their primary back-end language. Those three sites are/were Yahoo, Instagram and Uber. 3 out of 3 is a pretty high statistical correlation when you're only talking about a sample of 15. Given that, my saying, "I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language.", was a fair observation. An observation is just that (one blind man feeling an elephant). Saying "I noticed that" is a *very* different thing than making an assertion.
On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:
On 05/09/2017 01:00 PM, Paul Hughes wrote:Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions. I've been out of the programming world for a long time, so I am back to being a newbie. I was told this is the place for newcomers to ask questions. I apologize if my questions did not contain the necessary sophistication or nuance for some to answer.
It has more to do with making unsubstantiated assertions, namely:
"I noticed that most of the largest web platforms that use PostgreSQL as their primary database, also use Python as their primary back-end language. ..."
Many on this list(myself included) will want to know how you came to that conclusion and I am speaking as someone who uses Python, Django and Postgres.--
George, your answer makes the most sense. Thank you! You said:the "LAMP" or "LAPP" stack: i.e. Linux, Apache, MySQL or Postgresql,Most cloud servers come preconfigured with some variation of either
PHP or Python.something else: a JVM (or Apache-Tomcat vs regular Apache),There needs to be a compelling *application* reason to install
Ruby/Rails, Groovy/Grails, etc.
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com
Paul Hughes
Executive Director
Vivation International
Executive Director
Vivation International
1-800-514-8483