Обсуждение: Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?
Hello all, what I saw on PHP unconference told me that I should ask all again. I feel lonely. Believe me it is a bad feeling when it seems that nobody has interests in what you are doing. Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. Always, when I suggested to talk about my work in the SQL committee on community events, a committee rejected it. This just showed me that nobody really has interests in my work. I now learned that such a event committee not always is able to estimate interests correct. The only two persons who sometimes support me are David F. and Peter. The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts that needs decisions. I am not allowed to share the drafts in public. Because the drafts are confidential. But I am allowed to share the drafts with the group of ppl who are supporting me. Of course I am allowed to discuss the drafts with my folk before I will give my votes and comments. Is there really only David and Peter who have interests? I not really want to believe it. Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't get published - on which I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me? I don't fear to make decisions on my own - but speaking for the whole project without getting feedback - is a worse feeling. Usually, when I feel unsure how I should decide I just bother Peter - but I would prefer to have some more ppl in my background. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On 16 September 2011 16:24, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't get > published - on which > I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me? > > I don't fear to make decisions on my own - but speaking for the whole > project without > getting feedback - is a worse feeling. > > Usually, when I feel unsure how I should decide I just bother Peter - but I > would prefer > to have some more ppl in my background. I for one would definitely be interested in reading such a list. Cheers, BJ
On 16.09.2011 09:24, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: > The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of > drafts that needs > decisions. > > I am not allowed to share the drafts in public. Because the drafts are > confidential. I think that's a big part of the problem. It's hard to get excited about something if you don't know what's happening. > But I am allowed to share the drafts with the group of ppl who are > supporting me. > Of course I am allowed to discuss the drafts with my folk before I will > give my votes and comments. Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's people in the community with interests in particular topics, they could contact you and get involved. > Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't > get published - on which > I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me? I could join such a mailing list if you create one, but it would probably be better if specific topics could be discussed on pgsql-hackers. Perhaps this is something you should bring up in the committee. I understand that the committee doesn't want to open its work to the whole world, but I also don't see why work-in-progress features couldn't be discussed in the public. FWIW, I'm very glad you're on the committee! Even though I have no idea what's going on there, it gives me a warm feeling that there's someone on the committee who knows PostgreSQL. If someone proposes something that would hurt PostgreSQL, like syntax that we already use for something else, I know you're going to speak up. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > > Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an employee of MySQL. We've had a number of discussions both online and at one of the more recent developer meetings, and even approved funding around having (if I remember correctly) Peter or Simon represent us on the committee. > Always, when I suggested to talk about my work in the SQL committee on > community > events, a committee rejected it. This just showed me that nobody really has > interests > in my work. > > I now learned that such a event committee not always is able to estimate > interests correct. An event committee is not approving talks because the work is important to the community - they are approving talks that will be of interest to the conference audience. In the case of PG Conference Europe which I suspect you are alluding to there were a significant number of talks submitted that would be of far more interest and benefit to our primary audience of end users. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts > that needs > decisions. So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special syntax drafted into the sql standard? merlin
Dave, On 16.09.2011 14:33, Dave Page wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht > <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >> Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. > With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an > employee of MySQL. Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for taking care of Postgresql - taking care of MySQL others did. > An event committee is not approving talks because the work is > important to the community - they are approving talks that will be of > interest to the conference audience. You exactly hit the point here - where I had another opinion for what a community event also is. But doesn't matter. As I said - I just learned. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > >>> Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. >> >> With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an >> employee of MySQL. > > Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for taking care of > Postgresql - taking care of MySQL others did. My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents PostgreSQL. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Excerpts from Susanne Ebrecht's message of vie sep 16 03:24:58 -0300 2011: > Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't > get published - on which > I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me? It's certainly possible to create a private mailing list to support this idea. How would the membership be approved, however, is not clear to me. Would we let only well-known names from other pgsql lists into it? (I, for one, had no idea you were in the SQL committee.) -- Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Heikki, On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: > > Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary > of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if > there's people in the community with interests in particular topics, > they could contact you and get involved. Of course it is. I just not wanted to spam hackers. > FWIW, I'm very glad you're on the committee! Even though I have no > idea what's going on there, it gives me a warm feeling that there's > someone on the committee who knows PostgreSQL. If someone proposes > something that would hurt PostgreSQL, like syntax that we already use > for something else, I know you're going to speak up. > Thanks for the bouquet. This comment let me feel better. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote: > My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents > PostgreSQL. Dave, the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you. Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent your country. For example ANSI offered Sun to send some experts. If BSI wants your expertise then they would ask you or your company (don't know how BSI works internally). Germany ask for my PostgreSQL expertise. Of course Peter always was and still is in my background. Finland just has no active group yet - afair Peter is working on that problem. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote: >> >> My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents >> PostgreSQL. > > Dave, > > the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you. > Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent your > country. > For example ANSI offered Sun to send some experts. > If BSI wants your expertise then they would ask you or your company (don't > know how BSI works internally). > Germany ask for my PostgreSQL expertise. > > Of course Peter always was and still is in my background. > > Finland just has no active group yet - afair Peter is working on that > problem. You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the knowledge of others. I'd be glad to see us have representation, but I do not believe we have had any yet, and whatever you have done so far (which may or may not be good for us) really doesn't count because it hasn't involved the project in any way. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On 16-09-2011 10:26, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: > On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: >> >> Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary of >> things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's people >> in the community with interests in particular topics, they could contact you >> and get involved. > > Of course it is. I just not wanted to spam hackers. > But if it is community interest, of course it will bother no one here... -- Euler Taveira de Oliveira - Timbira http://www.timbira.com.br/ PostgreSQL: Consultoria, Desenvolvimento, Suporte24x7 e Treinamento
On 16.09.2011 14:38, Merlin Moncure wrote: > So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought > up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special > syntax drafted into the sql standard? Yes and no. You first need to convince your country and then - as country representative - you need to convince the other countries on ISO level. You have country based sql standard groups in several countries. The well known groups are ANSI for USA, BSI for UK, DIN for Germany, JTC for Japan and so on. Inner the country you usually represent your own product. Usually the country based group members are a mix of research folk (e.g. universities) and DB-System companies placed inner the country. Which experts they will let in and which not depends on the country based group. It is good here to be in a smaller country - because the groups are smaller and you can get more of your ideas up to ISO. All the country based groups together are ISO. In ISO every country just has a single vote. This means - even when your country suggested what you wanted then it could happen that there are enough countries against it so that your idea won't get into the standard. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote: > other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have > been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to > raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the > knowledge of others. Dave, I exactly did this with Peter. Afair, I once was told it is enough to report to Peter. And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too. I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Susanne Ebrecht <susanne@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote: >> >> other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have >> been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to >> raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the >> knowledge of others. > > Dave, > > I exactly did this with Peter. > Afair, I once was told it is enough to report to Peter. > And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too. > I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff. -hackers is exactly where we would discuss issues related to development and design of PostgreSQL. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
> And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too. > I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff. Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > > > And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too. > > I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff. > > Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports > before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql. > Well Susanne said that the drafts are not public information so maybe the things that *could* end up in a draft shouldn't be either, if so i agree with the idea of creating a private list for that -- Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación
On fre, 2011-09-16 at 07:38 -0500, Merlin Moncure wrote: > So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought > up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special > syntax drafted into the sql standard? Don't expect to take a PostgreSQL-specific feature, say, CREATE RULE or CREATE AGGREGATE, and make it into an ISO standard. The "big boys" still run the show, and it's unlikely that something gets accepted without buy in from one of the major proprietary vendors. Besides, writing actual standards is difficult and time-consuming work. But what you can accomplish is to mold upcoming features so that they don't clash with PostgreSQL, or better yet benefit PostgreSQL. Also, you can mold future PostgreSQL features in the converse way.
On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote: > You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL > on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the > point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making > other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have > been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to > raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the > knowledge of others. Let's not get into legalese. I don't think Susanne's point was the she was the sole and authoritative representative of the project. An alternative way to phrase this might be that she has been the only participant in committee meetings that has had PostgreSQL's concerns on her mind.
<br /><br />On Sunday, September 18, 2011, Peter Eisentraut <<a href="mailto:peter_e@gmx.net">peter_e@gmx.net</a>>wrote:<br />> On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote:<br/>>> You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL<br /> >> on the SQL Committee(or German working group, but that's not the<br />>> point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that,and were making<br />>> other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have<br /> >>been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to<br />>> raise before each meeting -not working in isolation, without the<br />>> knowledge of others.<br />><br />> Let's not get into legalese. I don't think Susanne's point was the she<br /> > was the sole and authoritative representative of the project. An<br />> alternative way to phrase this might be that she has been the only<br />> participant in committeemeetings that has had PostgreSQL's concerns on<br /> > her mind.<br /><br />That is much more reasonable, thoughunfortunately not what was said. Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should be communicatingwith the project regularly. Having a rep who works outside the project is of no use at all.<br /><br />-- <br/>Dave Page<br />Blog: <a href="http://pgsnake.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://pgsnake.blogspot.com</a><br />Twitter:@pgsnake<br /><br />EnterpriseDB UK: <a href="http://www.enterprisedb.com" target="_blank">http://www.enterprisedb.com</a><br/> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company<br /><br />
Susanne Ebrecht wrote: > Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard > committee. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for taking the time to look out for community interests. > The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of > drafts that needs decisions. As others have stated, I think it would be appropriate to discuss the issues under consideration on this list. A non-public list could make sense if it would allow you to share draft language in a way which wouldn't be possible here; those who wish to support your efforts in that regard could subscribe. -Kevin
On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: > That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. > Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should > be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works > outside the project is of no use at all. Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
>> That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
>> Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should
>> be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works
>> outside the project is of no use at all.
> Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?
+1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such
a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
appropriate purposes. I guess the real question is, exactly what will
be the requirements for joining?
regards, tom lane
> +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such > a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for > appropriate purposes. I guess the real question is, exactly what will > be the requirements for joining? Well, one requirement would be agreeing not to share anything discussed in public without a vote of the entire group. Annoying, but that's how confidential drafts go. FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of everything which is wrong with the ISO. Also, Suzanne indicated that summaries of what features were being discussed could be posted in public, even if details could not be. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of > everything which is wrong with the ISO. Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by the "big guys" and their IP claims. Joe
On 19.09.2011 15:50, Josh Berkus wrote: >> +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such >> a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for >> appropriate purposes. I guess the real question is, exactly what will >> be the requirements for joining? > Well, one requirement would be agreeing not to share anything discussed > in public without a vote of the entire group. Annoying, but that's how > confidential drafts go. Exactly. Honestly, I don't expect that it will get a big group. It is very dry stuff. > FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of > everything which is wrong with the ISO. +1 - But all suggestions to change it got rejected. > Also, Suzanne indicated that summaries of what features were being > discussed could be posted in public, even if details could not be. > I looked into it - I fear it will get too gibberish. You sometimes just need the details. Also - just forwarding it - is much easier and less time intensive for me. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: > On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic > > of everything which is wrong with the ISO. > > Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled > by the "big guys" and their IP claims. That's probably not a bad idea. The down side is that it'll be the work of decades, not years, to get this thing going. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter@gmail.com iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On 09/19/2011 12:20 PM, David Fetter wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: >> On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: >>> FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic >>> of everything which is wrong with the ISO. >> Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled >> by the "big guys" and their IP claims. > That's probably not a bad idea. The down side is that it'll be the work > of decades, not years, to get this thing going. > > Frankly, whether or not it might be desirable, it strikes me as probably simply tilting at windmills. cheers andrew
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: >> On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: >> > FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic >> > of everything which is wrong with the ISO. >> >> Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled >> by the "big guys" and their IP claims. > > That's probably not a bad idea. The down side is that it'll be the work > of decades, not years, to get this thing going. Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we don't have, as a community and aren't necessarily notably competent to construct. The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would be to participate in UnQL <http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home>. That's early enough in its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the popularity of NoSQL, being at the "ground breaking" of a common query language to access that would likely be useful to us. If we wanted to start a new standards process, I imagine it would best involve embracing "truly relational," stepping back to PostQUEL, and promoting a standard based on something off more in that direction. As much as that might sound like a terrible idea, trying to "take over" SQL by forking it strikes me as a much *worse* idea. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
On 09/19/2011 12:40 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: > Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction > from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we > don't have, as a community and aren't necessarily notably competent to > construct. > > The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would > be to participate in UnQL > <http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home>. That's early enough in > its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the > popularity of NoSQL, being at the "ground breaking" of a common query > language to access that would likely be useful to us. > > If we wanted to start a new standards process, I imagine it would best > involve embracing "truly relational," stepping back to PostQUEL, and > promoting a standard based on something off more in that direction. If I were looking for something "truly relational" I wouldn't go towards JSON or NoSQL, I'd go with something like Dee (http://www.quicksort.co.uk/ ) which IIRC were interested in building a PostgreSQL inteface. > As much as that might sound like a terrible idea, trying to "take > over" SQL by forking it strikes me as a much *worse* idea. My intention was not to "take over" anything. I only think it may be useful to discuss SQL features, informally or otherwise, with other open source "competitors" such as SQLite, MySQL (brethren), Firebird, etc., and Josh, having been close to the MySQL camp (even physically, from what I recall :-) is possibly well suited to start that discussion. Joe
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com> writes: > The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would > be to participate in UnQL > <http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home>. That's early enough in > its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the > popularity of NoSQL, being at the "ground breaking" of a common query > language to access that would likely be useful to us. Quite franckly, the thing that SQL was meant to provide is the ability for non programmers to grok and use the language by themselves. I'm yet to see that happen anywhere, all I see is developers and DBA that learn yet another programming language, which has a lot of strengths and its share of weaknesses too. My feeling here is that if we want to offer something else than our current SQL syntax support to the NoSQL people, we should expose the PostgreSQL system as a programming facility. Build a kind of a more classic programming language that would use our engine inside, etc. Here's and example of such a system, with some lisp and prolog interfaces on top of transactional data access semantics. http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#dbase IOW, I don't believe in another SQL standard, we're good enough at pushing the current one (wCTE being the last incantation of that, but all the custom types and extensibility are there too, building a kind of a generic or polymorphic type system, with custom operator support, etc). Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support
On 09/19/2011 10:58 AM, Joe Abbate wrote: > Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by > the "big guys" and their IP claims. > Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has vs. the "big guys". There needs to be a pretty serious problem with your process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards move. And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork. Last thing you want to be competing with a big company on is doing that sort of big company work. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us
2011/9/19 Greg Smith <greg@2ndquadrant.com>: > On 09/19/2011 10:58 AM, Joe Abbate wrote: >> >> Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by >> the "big guys" and their IP claims. >> > > Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other > vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has vs. > the "big guys". There needs to be a pretty serious problem with your > process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards move. > And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork. Last thing you > want to be competing with a big company on is doing that sort of big company > work. +1 :) Pavel > > -- > Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US greg@2ndQuadrant.com Baltimore, MD > PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.us > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers >
Hi Greg, On 09/19/2011 04:44 PM, Greg Smith wrote: > Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other > vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has > vs. the "big guys". There needs to be a pretty serious problem with > your process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards > move. And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork. Last > thing you want to be competing with a big company on is doing that sort > of big company work. You have a point there. However, open source standardization doesn't have to be patterned after closed source efforts. OTOH it's hard to predict what form it should take. Perhaps it's simply a matter of cross-pollination, i.e., the kind of interaction with MySQL groups that occurred over the last year (I realize it wasn't just or even primarily SQL-related). Joe
Folks, Can we move the discussion about hypothetical new standards groups over to -advocacy? This is getting a bit off-topic for -hackers. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com
On Monday, September 19, 2011 9:20 AM, "David Fetter" <david@fetter.org> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: > > On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic > > > of everything which is wrong with the ISO. > > > > Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled > > by the "big guys" and their IP claims. > > That's probably not a bad idea. The down side is that it'll be the work > of decades, not years, to get this thing going. If anyone wants to start on something like this, I think it could start as a rigorous review of PostgreSQL semantics. On Monday, September 19, 2011 4:44 PM, "Greg Smith" <greg@2ndQuadrant.com> wrote: > Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other > vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has > vs. the "big guys". There needs to be a pretty serious problem with > your process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards > move. And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork... Perhaps focusing only on PostgreSQL semantics and edge cases is also where the effort should stop. I'm not offering to do this. I think this work would only be really valuable if it significantly improved the already excellent documentation and regression tests -- ie, provides direct user value. Best, Clark
FYI, one of the main goals of the Muldis D language is to be an "open source SQL standard". It is intended to satisfy both relational and NoSQL folks, and predates UnQL significantly. Muldis D has always been published openly and is comprehensive enough to cover anything that SQL does, and anyone is welcome to improve it. Moreover, this standard has built-in resilience against "embrace, extend and extinguish" by including explicit versioning with authorities (Perl 6 inspired that feature), so that if anyone forks the language, it is possible for the different versions to be easily distinguishable and non-conflicting, and in a more benign respect it is designed to be extensible so DBMSs can be free to evolve under it, adding unique features, while not causing compatibility conflicts with other DBMSs in the process. Note that I have fallen behind in specifying a number of intended significant design improvements/simplifications to the spec proper, though much of this is hashed out in the laundry list TODO_DRAFT file in github. -- Darren Duncan Joe Abbate wrote: > On 09/19/2011 12:40 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: >> Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction >> from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we >> don't have, as a community and aren't necessarily notably competent to >> construct. >> >> The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would >> be to participate in UnQL >> <http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home>. That's early enough in >> its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the >> popularity of NoSQL, being at the "ground breaking" of a common query >> language to access that would likely be useful to us. >> >> If we wanted to start a new standards process, I imagine it would best >> involve embracing "truly relational," stepping back to PostQUEL, and >> promoting a standard based on something off more in that direction. > > If I were looking for something "truly relational" I wouldn't go towards > JSON or NoSQL, I'd go with something like Dee > (http://www.quicksort.co.uk/ ) which IIRC were interested in building a > PostgreSQL inteface. > >> As much as that might sound like a terrible idea, trying to "take >> over" SQL by forking it strikes me as a much *worse* idea. > > My intention was not to "take over" anything. I only think it may be > useful to discuss SQL features, informally or otherwise, with other open > source "competitors" such as SQLite, MySQL (brethren), Firebird, etc., > and Josh, having been close to the MySQL camp (even physically, from > what I recall :-) is possibly well suited to start that discussion. > > Joe >
On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes: > > On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: > >> That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. > >> Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should > >> be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works > >> outside the project is of no use at all. > > > Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate? > > +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such > a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for > appropriate purposes. Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The blocking issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it (I'm looking at you, pgfoundry). > I guess the real question is, exactly what will be the requirements > for joining? As as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is known in the community and has a plausible interest can join. The requirement is that we share this material with "colleagues" for consultation, as opposed to posting it on the public internet.
Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mar sep 20 10:51:51 -0300 2011: > On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > > Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes: > > > On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: > > >> That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. > > >> Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should > > >> be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works > > >> outside the project is of no use at all. > > > > > Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate? > > > > +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such > > a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for > > appropriate purposes. > > Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The blocking > issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it (I'm > looking at you, pgfoundry). I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org. -- Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 04:51:51PM +0300, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > > Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes: > > > On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: > > >> That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. > > >> Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should > > >> be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works > > >> outside the project is of no use at all. > > > > > Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate? > > > > +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such > > a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for > > appropriate purposes. > > Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The blocking > issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it (I'm > looking at you, pgfoundry). > > > I guess the real question is, exactly what will be the requirements > > for joining? > > As as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is known in the community and has > a plausible interest can join. The requirement is that we share this > material with "colleagues" for consultation, as opposed to posting it on > the public internet. I'd like to be on this list, and believe I qualify. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter@gmail.com iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > > > +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do > such > > > a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for > > > appropriate purposes. > > > > Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The blocking > > issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it > (I'm > > looking at you, pgfoundry). > > I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org. One nice thing about pgfoundry would be the document manager. Also, at least at some point in the past, a pgfoundry project was easier to manage than getting anything done about a @postgresql.org mailing list.
Hello Alvaro, On 16.09.2011 15:08, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > It's certainly possible to create a private mailing list to support this > idea. How would the membership be approved, however, is not clear to > me. Would we let only well-known names from other pgsql lists into it? > > (I, for one, had no idea you were in the SQL committee.) It will be personally me - who gets the penalty when something get outside the group who is supporting me. Members should be people that I can trust. Besides core team I trust all who core team trust. And of course there are ppl outside core team who I am trusting. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com
Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mié sep 21 00:27:53 -0300 2011: > > On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > > > > +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do > > > > such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed > > > > lists for appropriate purposes. > > > > > > Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The > > > blocking issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where > > > to put it (I'm looking at you, pgfoundry). > > > > I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org. > > One nice thing about pgfoundry would be the document manager. Also, at > least at some point in the past, a pgfoundry project was easier to > manage than getting anything done about a @postgresql.org mailing list. The document manager might be useful, true. I cannot speak about past administrators of the Majordomo installation that serves the @postgresql.org lists, though. For all intents and purposes, it seems I'm in charge of it now. -- Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mié sep 21 00:27:53 -0300 2011: >> >> On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: >> > > > +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do >> > > > such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed >> > > > lists for appropriate purposes. >> > > >> > > Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The >> > > blocking issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where >> > > to put it (I'm looking at you, pgfoundry). >> > >> > I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org. >> >> One nice thing about pgfoundry would be the document manager. Also, at >> least at some point in the past, a pgfoundry project was easier to >> manage than getting anything done about a @postgresql.org mailing list. > > The document manager might be useful, true. I cannot speak about past > administrators of the Majordomo installation that serves the > @postgresql.org lists, though. For all intents and purposes, it seems > I'm in charge of it now. Only "seems"? :-) -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company