Обсуждение: Make SSPI documentation clearer
The following documentation comment has been logged on the website: Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/15/sspi-auth.html Description: The [current SSPI documentation](https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sspi-auth.html) reads: "SSPI authentication only works when both server and client are running Windows, or, on non-Windows platforms, when GSSAPI is available." I interpret that phrase like this: * there's a case where both server and client are running Windows * there's a case where both are running non-Windows What about mixed cases? When the client is non-Windows, then can it use SSPI? No, AFAIK not. So I'd suggest to make that phrase above clearer and completely explicit: "SSPI authentication works when both server and client are running Windows. When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must use GSSAPI if it wants to authenticate the client either via Kerberos or via Active Directory. A client on a Windows platform that connects to a non-Windows Postgresql server can either use SSPI (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much more difficult to set up) if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory. A client from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory." Thanks a lot for everything Postgres to you who is reading a considering this change!
Greetings, * PG Doc comments form (noreply@postgresql.org) wrote: > Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/15/sspi-auth.html > Description: > > The [current SSPI > documentation](https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sspi-auth.html) > reads: > > "SSPI authentication only works when both server and client are running > Windows, or, on non-Windows platforms, when GSSAPI is available." > > I interpret that phrase like this: > > * there's a case where both server and client are running Windows > * there's a case where both are running non-Windows Yeah, that phrasing isn't great. > What about mixed cases? When the client is non-Windows, then can it use > SSPI? No, AFAIK not. So I'd suggest to make that phrase above clearer and > completely explicit: SSPI is Windows-specific, yeah. > "SSPI authentication works when both server and client are running > Windows. > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must use GSSAPI > if it wants to authenticate the client either via Kerberos or via Active > Directory. A client on a Windows platform that connects to a non-Windows > Postgresql server can either use SSPI (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much > more difficult to set up) if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active > Directory. A client from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to > authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory." Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use GSSAPI. Stricltly speaking, this is all independent of if AD is being used as the KDC or not. Thanks, Stephen
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On 13.03.23 01:36, Stephen Frost wrote: > * PG Doc comments form (noreply@postgresql.org) wrote: > > Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/15/sspi-auth.html > > Description: > > > > The [current SSPI > > documentation](https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sspi-auth.html) > > reads: > > > > "SSPI authentication only works when both server and client are > > running Windows, or, on non-Windows platforms, when GSSAPI is > > available." > > > > I interpret that phrase like this: > > > > * there's a case where both server and client are running Windows > > * there's a case where both are running non-Windows > > Yeah, that phrasing isn't great. > > > What about mixed cases? When the client is non-Windows, then can it > > use SSPI? No, AFAIK not. So I'd suggest to make that phrase above > > clearer and completely explicit: > > SSPI is Windows-specific, yeah. > > > "SSPI authentication works when both server and client are running > > Windows. > > > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must > > use GSSAPI if it wants to authenticate the client either via > > Kerberos or via Active Directory. A client on a Windows platform > > that connects to a non-Windows Postgresql server can either use SSPI > > (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much more difficult to set up) if it > > wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory. A client > > from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to authenticate > > via Kerberos or Active Directory." > > Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to > work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server > which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can > authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. > Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to > use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use > GSSAPI. > > Stricltly speaking, this is all independent of if AD is being used as > the KDC or not. I agree, that's a better formulation. I'd suggest to improve your version in three ways: 1. replace "mechanism" with "authentication mechanism" 2. be explicit about Active Directory so there's no doubt wrt to setting up authentication 3. be explicit that GSSAPI should be used on non-Windows platform servers when one wants clients in an AD domain to seamlessly authenticate with the non-Windows server. I'd mention that because if the windows clients are *not* in an AD domain then they will *not* be able to authenticate to the non-Windows server with GSSAPI. So finally the whole start of the SSPI paragraph in the docu would look like this: ---------------------- 21.7. SSPI Authentication On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used authentication mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms are recommended to use GSSAPI if they want to interoperate seamlessly with Active Directory or Kerberos authentication. When using Kerberos authentication, SSPI works the same way GSSAPI does; see Section 21.6 for details. ---------------------- If the docu is changed in this way, then the phrase "PostgreSQL will use SSPI in negotiate mode" is dropped wrt to the previous documentation. I have not been able to find out what "SSPI in negotion mode" is and therefore if it's in any way relevant to mention that in the docs. Thanks, *t
Hi pgsql documenters, what is the status of bringing the proposed SSPI documentation chages into the git repo? - is there anything to be improved or missing with the proposed changes? - does the improvement need a hat tip of someone? - anybody here that has the guts, time and willingness to take the supposed improvement and apply put it into the git repo? Anything else needed here? If the change is in principle OK, then I can prepare a patch or such (I assume postgres doesn't take pull requests from https://github.com/postgres ?)? Greetings, *t On 13.03.23 10:00, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > On 13.03.23 01:36, Stephen Frost wrote: > > > * PG Doc comments form (noreply@postgresql.org) wrote: > > > Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/15/sspi-auth.html > > > Description: > > > > > > The [current SSPI > > > documentation](https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sspi-auth.html) > > > reads: > > > > > > "SSPI authentication only works when both server and client are > > > running Windows, or, on non-Windows platforms, when GSSAPI is > > > available." > > > > > > I interpret that phrase like this: > > > > > > * there's a case where both server and client are running Windows > > > * there's a case where both are running non-Windows > > > > Yeah, that phrasing isn't great. > > > > > What about mixed cases? When the client is non-Windows, then can it > > > use SSPI? No, AFAIK not. So I'd suggest to make that phrase above > > > clearer and completely explicit: > > > > SSPI is Windows-specific, yeah. > > > > > "SSPI authentication works when both server and client are running > > > Windows. > > > > > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must > > > use GSSAPI if it wants to authenticate the client either via > > > Kerberos or via Active Directory. A client on a Windows platform > > > that connects to a non-Windows Postgresql server can either use SSPI > > > (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much more difficult to set up) if it > > > wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory. A client > > > from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to authenticate > > > via Kerberos or Active Directory." > > > > Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to > > work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: > > > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > > mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server > > which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can > > authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. > > Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to > > use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use > > GSSAPI. > > > > Stricltly speaking, this is all independent of if AD is being used as > > the KDC or not. > > I agree, that's a better formulation. I'd suggest to improve your > version in three ways: > > 1. replace "mechanism" with "authentication mechanism" > 2. be explicit about Active Directory so there's no doubt wrt to setting > up authentication > 3. be explicit that GSSAPI should be used on non-Windows platform > servers when one wants clients in an AD domain to seamlessly > authenticate with the non-Windows server. I'd mention that because if > the windows clients are *not* in an AD domain then they will *not* be > able to authenticate to the non-Windows server with GSSAPI. > > So finally the whole start of the SSPI paragraph in the docu would look > like this: > > > ---------------------- > > 21.7. SSPI Authentication > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > authentication mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to > a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can > authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. > Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to > use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms are > recommended to use GSSAPI if they want to interoperate seamlessly with > Active Directory or Kerberos authentication. > > When using Kerberos authentication, SSPI works the same way GSSAPI does; > see Section 21.6 for details. > > ---------------------- > > If the docu is changed in this way, then the phrase "PostgreSQL will use > SSPI in negotiate mode" is dropped wrt to the previous documentation. I > have not been able to find out what "SSPI in negotion mode" is and > therefore if it's in any way relevant to mention that in the docs. > > Thanks, > *t > >
Greetings, * Tomas Pospisek (tpo2@sourcepole.ch) wrote: > what is the status of bringing the proposed SSPI documentation chages into > the git repo? > - is there anything to be improved or missing with the proposed changes? ... maybe, see below. > - does the improvement need a hat tip of someone? Needs a committer willing to include the change. I'm generally alright with being that committer once we get to some finalized wording unless there's comments from others. > - anybody here that has the guts, time and willingness to take the > supposed improvement and apply put it into the git repo? This isn't helpful and frankly is detrimental to getting this change included. We strive strongly to have a positive tone and focus on technical excellence. > Anything else needed here? See below for comments on the change. > If the change is in principle OK, then I can prepare a patch or such (I > assume postgres doesn't take pull requests from https://github.com/postgres > ?)? If you'd like to work on a patch, that'd be great. The process would be to make the change in your local git repo, create a patch with the change (generally with git format-patch) and then post an email to the pgsql-hackers mailing list with the proposed patch and finally register it into the open commitfest (which is the app that we use for managing the many, many requested changes to PG): https://commitfest.postgresql.org > On 13.03.23 10:00, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > > On 13.03.23 01:36, Stephen Frost wrote: > > > > > * PG Doc comments form (noreply@postgresql.org) wrote: > > > > Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/15/sspi-auth.html > > > > Description: > > > > > > > > The [current SSPI > > > > documentation](https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sspi-auth.html) > > > > reads: > > > > > > > > "SSPI authentication only works when both server and client are > > > > running Windows, or, on non-Windows platforms, when GSSAPI is > > > > available." > > > > > > > > I interpret that phrase like this: > > > > > > > > * there's a case where both server and client are running Windows > > > > * there's a case where both are running non-Windows > > > > > > Yeah, that phrasing isn't great. > > > > > > > What about mixed cases? When the client is non-Windows, then can it > > > > use SSPI? No, AFAIK not. So I'd suggest to make that phrase above > > > > clearer and completely explicit: > > > > > > SSPI is Windows-specific, yeah. > > > > > > > "SSPI authentication works when both server and client are running > > > > Windows. > > > > > > > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must > > > > use GSSAPI if it wants to authenticate the client either via > > > > Kerberos or via Active Directory. A client on a Windows platform > > > > that connects to a non-Windows Postgresql server can either use SSPI > > > > (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much more difficult to set up) if it > > > > wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory. A client > > > > from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to authenticate > > > > via Kerberos or Active Directory." > > > > > > Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to > > > work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: > > > > > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > > > mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server > > > which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can > > > authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. > > > Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to > > > use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use > > > GSSAPI. > > > > > > Stricltly speaking, this is all independent of if AD is being used as > > > the KDC or not. > > > > I agree, that's a better formulation. I'd suggest to improve your > > version in three ways: > > > > 1. replace "mechanism" with "authentication mechanism" Sure. > > 2. be explicit about Active Directory so there's no doubt wrt to setting > > up authentication Not against the idea of mentioning AD... > > 3. be explicit that GSSAPI should be used on non-Windows platform > > servers when one wants clients in an AD domain to seamlessly > > authenticate with the non-Windows server. I'd mention that because if > > the windows clients are *not* in an AD domain then they will *not* be > > able to authenticate to the non-Windows server with GSSAPI. However, Windows systems not in an AD domain can certainly use GSSAPI to authenticate with the appropriate libraries installed and Kerberos configured on them. > > So finally the whole start of the SSPI paragraph in the docu would look > > like this: > > ---------------------- > > > > 21.7. SSPI Authentication > > > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > > authentication mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to > > a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can > > authenticate to a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. > > Generally speaking, clients and servers on Windows are recommended to > > use SSPI while clients and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms are > > recommended to use GSSAPI if they want to interoperate seamlessly with > > Active Directory or Kerberos authentication. > > > > When using Kerberos authentication, SSPI works the same way GSSAPI does; > > see Section 21.6 for details. > > > > ---------------------- These changes generally seem alright to me and they don't seem to include an invalid statement such as what you were proposing with #3 above. > > If the docu is changed in this way, then the phrase "PostgreSQL will use > > SSPI in negotiate mode" is dropped wrt to the previous documentation. I > > have not been able to find out what "SSPI in negotion mode" is and > > therefore if it's in any way relevant to mention that in the docs. I'm not sure that it's necessary to delve into Negotiate mode either in this documentation. For those curious, it's essentially another wrapping of Kerberos, akin to SASL, to allow for other authentication methods to be used instead of Kerberos (think NTLM). It's been a while since I delved into it, but my last recollection was that using Negotiate for any of the other valid options (which was mainly just NTLM, again, as I recall) other than for Kerberos is basically deprecated and strongly discouraged. Thanks, Stephen
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On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must use GSSAPI > > if it wants to authenticate the client either via Kerberos or via Active > > Directory. A client on a Windows platform that connects to a non-Windows > > Postgresql server can either use SSPI (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much > > more difficult to set up) if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active > > Directory. A client from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to > > authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory." > > Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to > work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server which > is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can authenticate to > a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. Generally speaking, > clients and servers on Windows are recommended to use SSPI while clients > and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use GSSAPI. I developed the attached patch. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us EDB https://enterprisedb.com Only you can decide what is important to you.
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On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 07:09:02PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must use GSSAPI > > > if it wants to authenticate the client either via Kerberos or via Active > > > Directory. A client on a Windows platform that connects to a non-Windows > > > Postgresql server can either use SSPI (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much > > > more difficult to set up) if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active > > > Directory. A client from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to > > > authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory." > > > > Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to > > work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: > > > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > > mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server which > > is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can authenticate to > > a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. Generally speaking, > > clients and servers on Windows are recommended to use SSPI while clients > > and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use GSSAPI. > > I developed the attached patch. My first attempt was too terse, so here is a more detailed version, attached. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us EDB https://enterprisedb.com Only you can decide what is important to you.
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On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 09:55:43AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 07:09:02PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > > > > When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must use GSSAPI > > > > if it wants to authenticate the client either via Kerberos or via Active > > > > Directory. A client on a Windows platform that connects to a non-Windows > > > > Postgresql server can either use SSPI (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much > > > > more difficult to set up) if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active > > > > Directory. A client from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to > > > > authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory." > > > > > > Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to > > > work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: > > > > > > On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used > > > mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server which > > > is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can authenticate to > > > a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. Generally speaking, > > > clients and servers on Windows are recommended to use SSPI while clients > > > and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use GSSAPI. > > > > I developed the attached patch. > > My first attempt was too terse, so here is a more detailed version, > attached. Patch applied back to PG 11. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us EDB https://enterprisedb.com Only you can decide what is important to you.
On 10.10.23 22:51, Bruce Momjian wrote: > On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 09:55:43AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 07:09:02PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: >>> On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: >>>>> When the server is on a non-Windows platform then the server must use GSSAPI >>>>> if it wants to authenticate the client either via Kerberos or via Active >>>>> Directory. A client on a Windows platform that connects to a non-Windows >>>>> Postgresql server can either use SSPI (strongly encouraged) or GSS (much >>>>> more difficult to set up) if it wants to authenticate via Kerberos or Active >>>>> Directory. A client from a non-Windows platform must use GSS if it wants to >>>>> authenticate via Kerberos or Active Directory." >>>> >>>> Rather than work in negative, I feel like it might make more sense to >>>> work in positives? That is, perhaps this instead: >>>> >>>> On Windows platforms, SSPI is the default and most commonly used >>>> mechanism. Note that an SSPI client can authenticate to a server which >>>> is using either SSPI or GSSAPI, and a GSSAPI client can authenticate to >>>> a server which is using either SSPI or GSSAPI. Generally speaking, >>>> clients and servers on Windows are recommended to use SSPI while clients >>>> and servers on Unix (non-Windows) platforms use GSSAPI. >>> >>> I developed the attached patch. >> >> My first attempt was too terse, so here is a more detailed version, >> attached. > > Patch applied back to PG 11. Nice! Thanks a lot Bruce! And: Stephen wrote: > >> Tomas wrote: >> >> - anybody here that has the guts, time and willingness to take the >> supposed improvement and apply put it into the git repo? > > This isn't helpful and frankly is detrimental to getting this change > included. We strive strongly to have a positive tone and focus on > technical excellence. Thanks a lot Stephen for this comment! I hope it will cause a more important change on my side than my minuscule effort to improve the docu. And sorry I didn't follow up - life piled up and I never came back to this. Many thanks Stephen, really, very appreciated and thanks Bruce for picking up the ball!!! *t