Обсуждение: Cleaning up the Download options
I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
Primary downloads:
- postgresql.org packages are up to date.
--
- EDB installers are up to date.
- BigSQL installers are up to date.
- postgres.app is up to date.
- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.
- MacPorts is up to date.
- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
Secondary (third party) downloads:
- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.
- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.
- TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.
- BitNami images are up to date.
Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On 2019-05-09 01:13, Dave Page wrote: <snip> > Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any > comments > somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including > following > my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ). Should some kind of pointer to the Docker PostgreSQL images also be there? https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres From a quick glance, they seem to be kept reasonably up to date. :) + Justin
On 2019-05-08 17:13, Dave Page wrote: > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many > clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. > The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. PostgreSQL 11 looks up to date: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/blob/master/Formula/postgresql.rb -- Peter Eisentraut http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.
I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?
- TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.- BitNami images are up to date.Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).--Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
> On 8 May 2019, at 17:13, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell. The EDB installers for Linux are also on 9.4 through 10 it seems. cheers ./daniel
On 9 May 2019, at 12:09, Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se> wrote: >> On 8 May 2019, at 17:13, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell. > > The EDB installers for Linux are also on 9.4 through 10 it seems. Yes, as the page notes, they are discontinued after 10 and users are recommended to use native packages. The older versionsare fully up to date though, and released on the community schedule.
> On 9 May 2019, at 13:55, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > > On 9 May 2019, at 12:09, Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se> wrote: > >>> On 8 May 2019, at 17:13, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> >>> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell. >> >> The EDB installers for Linux are also on 9.4 through 10 it seems. > > Yes, as the page notes, they are discontinued after 10 and users are recommended to use native packages. The older versionsare fully up to date though, and released on the community schedule. Yeah, I just now managed to parse what you actually wrote; that Fink is behind a version on 10.x, not that they are behind by not having a 11 package. I’ll go have another coffee now. cheers ./daniel
> On 9 May 2019, at 07:40, Peter Eisentraut <peter.eisentraut@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > >> On 2019-05-08 17:13, Dave Page wrote: >> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many >> clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. >> The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > PostgreSQL 11 looks up to date: > https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/blob/master/Formula/postgresql.rb Hmm, it wasn’t showing up on their package site, but it certainly does seem to be there. Thanks!
> On 8 May 2019, at 22:28, Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> wrote: > >> On 2019-05-09 01:13, Dave Page wrote: >> <snip> >> Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments >> somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following >> my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ). > > Should some kind of pointer to the Docker PostgreSQL images also be there? > > https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres > > From a quick glance, they seem to be kept reasonably up to date. :) Good suggestion, thanks.
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 6:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think weneed to have a cleanup: > > Primary downloads: > > - postgresql.org packages are up to date. > - EDB installers are up to date. > - BigSQL installers are up to date. > - postgres.app is up to date. > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell. > - MacPorts is up to date. > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!).I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primarydownloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed. > > Secondary (third party) downloads: > > - LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed. > > - 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think thisshould be removed. > > - TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I eventually tracked down the manifest file for theirimages and found they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed. > > - BitNami images are up to date. > > Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate(including following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ). We submitted download page for windows packages https://postgrespro.com/windows > > > > -- > Dave Page > Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com > Twitter: @pgsnake > > EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com > The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com The Russian Postgres Company
Hi, On 5/8/19 11:13 AM, Dave Page wrote: > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are > out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup: Thanks for going through these! As for what I've said publicly for many years, my general feeling is "less is more" when it comes to installers and ensuring the process of getting PostgreSQL installed is easy for our users: we want to be able to offer packages that support the installation mechanisms for each environment, as long as they are maintained. For the purposes of this exercise, I'll get off of my soapbox at that statement :) With that said: > Primary downloads: > > - postgresql.org <http://postgresql.org> packages are up to date. > - EDB installers are up to date. > - BigSQL installers are up to date. > - postgres.app is up to date. > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at > all as far as I can tell. > - MacPorts is up to date. > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many > clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. > The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be > maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed. Based on downthread comments, it sounds like we leave Brew and get rid of Fink, though see note below. > > Secondary (third party) downloads: > > - LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It > should be removed. > - 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently > carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed. > > - TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I > eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found > they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed. If these are not being maintained, they should be removed. However, before we do any removals, perhaps we reach out to all of the package maintainers to give them a chance to say "Yes we're no longer supporting it?" > - BitNami images are up to date. > > Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any > comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including > following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ). +1 to Justin's comment downthread on referencing the container packages from DockerHub, though for the time being I'd treat it as "3rd Party Dist." as we don't actually validate those packages in any way nor are they on community infrastructure. This gets into a larger topic that I may (read: will) broach at PGCon (and what I feel this is leading to) is to create a design for the Downloads page that respects & uses the hierarchy you've developed but gives it a bit more modern feel. I've had some thoughts for how to carry this out and looking forward to discussing more. Thanks, Jonathan
Вложения
On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 3:33 PM Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@postgrespro.ru> wrote:
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 6:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>
> I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
>
> Primary downloads:
>
> - postgresql.org packages are up to date.
> - EDB installers are up to date.
> - BigSQL installers are up to date.
> - postgres.app is up to date.
> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.
> - MacPorts is up to date.
> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
>
> Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
>
> Secondary (third party) downloads:
>
> - LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.
>
> - 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.
>
> - TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.
>
> - BitNami images are up to date.
>
> Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).
We submitted download page for windows packages
https://postgrespro.com/windows
Yes, but adding them is way outside the scope of what I'm proposing here. There are issues that would require discussion (on a different thread), e.g.
- Your packages include patches to PostgreSQL that are not in the community repo.
- Your packages include changes to LGPL licenced third party components that may put unexpected and onerous requirements on end users or users that embed in other products.
- What happens if a user gets confused and tries to upgrade an existing installation from the BigSQL or EDB installers with one of yours (or the other way round)? Will it break their system?
- You're packaging a version of pgAdmin that hasn't been supported in years and will likely fail in numerous ways with modern PostgreSQL versions. As the person most likely to get bug reports about that (which will be ignored), I certainly don't want us to be distributing pgAdmin 3 with modern builds of PostgreSQL.
There may be more things, but those are issues I spotted in a few minutes on the Github repo, that I think would need discussion before we could consider adding more installers (and right now, I know a number of people think we should be doing the opposite, and simplifying the choices given to users).
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Hi
On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 4:56 PM Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:
Hi,
On 5/8/19 11:13 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are
> out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
Thanks for going through these!
As for what I've said publicly for many years, my general feeling is
"less is more" when it comes to installers and ensuring the process of
getting PostgreSQL installed is easy for our users: we want to be able
to offer packages that support the installation mechanisms for each
environment, as long as they are maintained. For the purposes of this
exercise, I'll get off of my soapbox at that statement :)
With that said:
> Primary downloads:
>
> - postgresql.org <http://postgresql.org> packages are up to date.
> - EDB installers are up to date.
> - BigSQL installers are up to date.
> - postgres.app is up to date.
> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at
> all as far as I can tell.
> - MacPorts is up to date.
> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many
> clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now.
> The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
>
> Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew
> distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be
> maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
Based on downthread comments, it sounds like we leave Brew and get rid
of Fink, though see note below.
>
> Secondary (third party) downloads:
>
> - LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It
> should be removed.
> - 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently
> carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.
>
> - TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I
> eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found
> they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.
If these are not being maintained, they should be removed.
However, before we do any removals, perhaps we reach out to all of the
package maintainers to give them a chance to say "Yes we're no longer
supporting it?"
I'm inclined not to do that. My reasoning is that if we have to prod them to update builds once, we'll almost certainly have to do it again and will have to keep checking up on them. It's not like there aren't various ways people could keep up to date with our releases - and two of those third party packages are maintained by *very* active PG people.
Fink is the one I might suggest giving some leeway to. Those packages are less than six months out of date, and the maintainer isn't (unlike the one for Brew and MacPorts) on the -packagers list - which I thought we considered a requirement for the "primary downloads".
> - BitNami images are up to date.
>
> Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any
> comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including
> following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).
+1 to Justin's comment downthread on referencing the container packages
from DockerHub, though for the time being I'd treat it as "3rd Party
Dist." as we don't actually validate those packages in any way nor are
Right. They're also not on the -packagers list.
This gets into a larger topic that I may (read: will) broach at PGCon
(and what I feel this is leading to) is to create a design for the
Downloads page that respects & uses the hierarchy you've developed but
gives it a bit more modern feel. I've had some thoughts for how to carry
this out and looking forward to discussing more.
Bring mockups!
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 11:49 AM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?
I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect added quite quickly if there are no objections.
- TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.- BitNami images are up to date.Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).--Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 11:49 AM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect added quite quickly if there are no objections.
No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm still working through my backlog.
The PostgreSQL installers and 2UDA are different things and should be treated on their own merits in my opinion. We should not have links for one thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 11:49 AM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect added quite quickly if there are no objections.No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm still working through my backlog.
I understand. I didn't mean my comment to be directed at you.
The PostgreSQL installers and 2UDA are different things and should be treated on their own merits in my opinion. We should not have links for one thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.
I think that makes sense. Perhaps we should consider changing the text to better suit Postgres Installer rather than 2UDA here.
Separate FYI, 2ndQuadrant had restarted efforts on 2UDA anyways and will be making updated packages available before the end of next week.
--Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On 2019-05-14 20:53, Dave Page wrote: > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 4:56 PM Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> <snip> >> +1 to Justin's comment downthread on referencing the container >> packages >> from DockerHub, though for the time being I'd treat it as "3rd Party >> Dist." as we don't actually validate those packages in any way nor are > > Right. They're also not on the -packagers list. Oh, good point. I'll look up some of the people responsible for the PG images on DockerHub and point them at the -packagers list. No idea if it'll work, but shouldn't hurt to try. :) + Justin
On 2019-05-14 20:53, Dave Page wrote: <snip> > Right. They're also not on the -packagers list. Not seeing a mention of any packagers related mailing list on the main PG website: https://www.postgresql.org/list/ ... nor on our mailing list search page: https://www.postgresql.org/search/ There are a few lists for specific packing types though: * https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-debian/ * https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-yum/ * https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-docker/ <-- here So, they're already on there though the docker list is inactive and hasn't seen email traffic in nearly 3 years. The two main people for the DockerHub PG repo (to this day) are Tianon Gravi and Joe Ferguson, who were present on the now inactive mailing list. Hmmm, thoughts? + Justin
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 1:54 PM Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> wrote:
On 2019-05-14 20:53, Dave Page wrote:
<snip>
> Right. They're also not on the -packagers list.
Not seeing a mention of any packagers related mailing list on
the main PG website:
https://www.postgresql.org/list/
... nor on our mailing list search page:
https://www.postgresql.org/search/
There are a few lists for specific packing types though:
* https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-debian/
* https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-yum/
* https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-docker/ <-- here
So, they're already on there though the docker list is
inactive and hasn't seen email traffic in nearly 3 years.
The two main people for the DockerHub PG repo (to this day) are
Tianon Gravi and Joe Ferguson, who were present on the now
inactive mailing list.
Hmmm, thoughts?
You won't find references to it as it's a private, invitation-only list due to the sensitive nature of some of the content.
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Hi Dave, On 5/14/19 6:53 AM, Dave Page wrote: > Hi > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 4:56 PM Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org > <mailto:jkatz@postgresql.org>> wrote: > > However, before we do any removals, perhaps we reach out to all of the > package maintainers to give them a chance to say "Yes we're no longer > supporting it?" > > > I'm inclined not to do that. My reasoning is that if we have to prod > them to update builds once, we'll almost certainly have to do it again > and will have to keep checking up on them. It's not like there aren't > various ways people could keep up to date with our releases - and two of > those third party packages are maintained by *very* active PG people. That's fair. I would suggest, if the contact info is still valid, we at least contact the maintainers to let them know we are removing their packages as a courtesy. > > Fink is the one I might suggest giving some leeway to. Those packages > are less than six months out of date, and the maintainer isn't (unlike > the one for Brew and MacPorts) on the -packagers list - which I thought > we considered a requirement for the "primary downloads". WFM. > This gets into a larger topic that I may (read: will) broach at PGCon > (and what I feel this is leading to) is to create a design for the > Downloads page that respects & uses the hierarchy you've developed but > gives it a bit more modern feel. I've had some thoughts for how to carry > this out and looking forward to discussing more. > > > Bring mockups! ...probably more like sketches on a piece of paper :) Jonathan
Вложения
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 04:13:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are > out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup: > > Primary downloads: > > - postgresql.org packages are up to date. > - EDB installers are up to date. > - BigSQL installers are up to date. > - postgres.app is up to date. > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all > as far as I can tell. > - MacPorts is up to date. > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks > gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The > packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained > on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above. Best, David. -- David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:25 PM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote:
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 04:13:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are
> out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
>
> Primary downloads:
>
> - postgresql.org packages are up to date.
> - EDB installers are up to date.
> - BigSQL installers are up to date.
> - postgres.app is up to date.
> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all
> as far as I can tell.
> - MacPorts is up to date.
> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks
> gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The
> packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
>
> Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew
> distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained
> on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with
upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above.
Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On 2019-May-08, Dave Page wrote: > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all > as far as I can tell. > - MacPorts is up to date. > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks > gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The > packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained > on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed. A couple of weeks ago I got in touch with the packager for Fink. Please don't remove them yet. -- Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:54 PM Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
On 2019-May-08, Dave Page wrote:
> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all
> as far as I can tell.
> - MacPorts is up to date.
> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks
> gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The
> packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
>
> Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew
> distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained
> on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
A couple of weeks ago I got in touch with the packager for Fink. Please
don't remove them yet.
I won't - I have also emailed him.
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 04:23:46PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:25 PM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 04:13:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > > > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are > > > out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup: > > > > > > Primary downloads: > > > > > > - postgresql.org packages are up to date. > > > - EDB installers are up to date. > > > - BigSQL installers are up to date. > > > - postgres.app is up to date. > > > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all > > > as far as I can tell. > > > - MacPorts is up to date. > > > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many > > clicks > > > gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The > > > packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > > > > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew > > > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be > > maintained > > > on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with > > upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above. > > Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default What I see there: 11.3, 10.6, 9.6.13, 9.5.15, 9.4.21 The most recent releases: 11.3, 10.8, 9.6.13, 9.5.17, 9.4.22 Is this really drastically out of step, given that a new install, by default, would be 11.3? Best, David. -- David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 4:44 AM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 04:23:46PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:25 PM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 04:13:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are
> > > out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
> > >
> > > Primary downloads:
> > >
> > > - postgresql.org packages are up to date.
> > > - EDB installers are up to date.
> > > - BigSQL installers are up to date.
> > > - postgres.app is up to date.
> > > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all
> > > as far as I can tell.
> > > - MacPorts is up to date.
> > > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many
> > clicks
> > > gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The
> > > packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
> > >
> > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew
> > > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be
> > maintained
> > > on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with
> > upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above.
>
> Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default
What I see there: 11.3, 10.6, 9.6.13, 9.5.15, 9.4.21
The most recent releases: 11.3, 10.8, 9.6.13, 9.5.17, 9.4.22
Is this really drastically out of step, given that a new install, by
default, would be 11.3?
I never said it was drastically out of step. However, those distributions listed on the "primary" section are expected to be fully up to date, not months out of date as is the case with some of those branches.
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 08:59:28AM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 4:44 AM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 04:23:46PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > > > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:25 PM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 04:13:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > > > > > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number > > are > > > > > out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a > > cleanup: > > > > > > > > > > Primary downloads: > > > > > > > > > > - postgresql.org packages are up to date. > > > > > - EDB installers are up to date. > > > > > - BigSQL installers are up to date. > > > > > - postgres.app is up to date. > > > > > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 > > at all > > > > > as far as I can tell. > > > > > - MacPorts is up to date. > > > > > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many > > > > clicks > > > > > gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The > > > > > packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches. > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew > > > > > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be > > > > maintained > > > > > on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with > > > > upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above. > > > > > > Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default > > > > What I see there: 11.3, 10.6, 9.6.13, 9.5.15, 9.4.21 > > The most recent releases: 11.3, 10.8, 9.6.13, 9.5.17, 9.4.22 > > > > Is this really drastically out of step, given that a new install, by > > default, would be 11.3? > > > > I never said it was drastically out of step. However, those distributions > listed on the "primary" section are expected to be fully up to date, not > months out of date as is the case with some of those branches. For people using MacOS, homebrew can be a real time saver, broadly speaking. I'll commit to keeping the minor versions patched, and while I can't guarantee that those patches will be applied immediately, I can say I have yet to wait more than three days for that to happen. Best, David. -- David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:15 PM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote:
On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 08:59:28AM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 4:44 AM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 04:23:46PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:25 PM David Fetter <david@fetter.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 04:13:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > > > > I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number
> > are
> > > > > out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a
> > cleanup:
> > > > >
> > > > > Primary downloads:
> > > > >
> > > > > - postgresql.org packages are up to date.
> > > > > - EDB installers are up to date.
> > > > > - BigSQL installers are up to date.
> > > > > - postgres.app is up to date.
> > > > > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11
> > at all
> > > > > as far as I can tell.
> > > > > - MacPorts is up to date.
> > > > > - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many
> > > > clicks
> > > > > gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The
> > > > > packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew
> > > > > distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be
> > > > maintained
> > > > > on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with
> > > > upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above.
> > >
> > > Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default
> >
> > What I see there: 11.3, 10.6, 9.6.13, 9.5.15, 9.4.21
> > The most recent releases: 11.3, 10.8, 9.6.13, 9.5.17, 9.4.22
> >
> > Is this really drastically out of step, given that a new install, by
> > default, would be 11.3?
> >
>
> I never said it was drastically out of step. However, those distributions
> listed on the "primary" section are expected to be fully up to date, not
> months out of date as is the case with some of those branches.
For people using MacOS, homebrew can be a real time saver, broadly
speaking. I'll commit to keeping the minor versions patched, and while
I can't guarantee that those patches will be applied immediately, I
can say I have yet to wait more than three days for that to happen.
Great, thanks.
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:46 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 11:49 AM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect added quite quickly if there are no objections.No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm still working through my backlog.I understand. I didn't mean my comment to be directed at you.The PostgreSQL installers and 2UDA are different things and should be treated on their own merits in my opinion. We should not have links for one thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.I think that makes sense. Perhaps we should consider changing the text to better suit Postgres Installer rather than 2UDA here.Separate FYI, 2ndQuadrant had restarted efforts on 2UDA anyways and will be making updated packages available before the end of next week.
FYI, updated 2UDA packages are now available on the said link.
--Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 6:25 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:46 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 11:49 AM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect added quite quickly if there are no objections.No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm still working through my backlog.I understand. I didn't mean my comment to be directed at you.The PostgreSQL installers and 2UDA are different things and should be treated on their own merits in my opinion. We should not have links for one thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.I think that makes sense. Perhaps we should consider changing the text to better suit Postgres Installer rather than 2UDA here.Separate FYI, 2ndQuadrant had restarted efforts on 2UDA anyways and will be making updated packages available before the end of next week.FYI, updated 2UDA packages are now available on the said link.
Thanks Umair. I assume the intention is to keep them up to date moving forwards?
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 1:03 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 6:25 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:46 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 PM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 11:49 AM Umair Shahid <umair.shahid@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:Primary downloads:- postgresql.org packages are up to date.- EDB installers are up to date.- BigSQL installers are up to date.- postgres.app is up to date.- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.- MacPorts is up to date.- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.Secondary (third party) downloads:- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads section?I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect added quite quickly if there are no objections.No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm still working through my backlog.I understand. I didn't mean my comment to be directed at you.The PostgreSQL installers and 2UDA are different things and should be treated on their own merits in my opinion. We should not have links for one thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.I think that makes sense. Perhaps we should consider changing the text to better suit Postgres Installer rather than 2UDA here.Separate FYI, 2ndQuadrant had restarted efforts on 2UDA anyways and will be making updated packages available before the end of next week.FYI, updated 2UDA packages are now available on the said link.Thanks Umair. I assume the intention is to keep them up to date moving forwards?
That's correct.
I do, however, want to continue exploring the possibility of listing Postgres Installer.
--Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company