Обсуждение: Governance directory page for pg.o

As discussed during the PGConf.dev developer meeting, here is a first 
pass attempt at a patch for pg.o to add a "Governance Directory" page, 
along with a few supporting new pages. Specifically it proposes to move 
the "Committers" and "Sysadmin" pages off the wiki and onto pg.o, and 
adds pages for the Contributors Committee and Recognized Contributors 
Policy (as discussed back in February at FOSDEM).

There is more that can and should be done here, but I was hoping to get 
this set of changes in place before trying to boil the ocean.
* More/missing teams/committees
* Add "how to volunteer/help" to individual team pages
* Other stuff?

Comments/thoughts/flames?

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

> On 19 Jun 2024, at 15:50, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:

> There is more that can and should be done here, but I was hoping to get this set of changes in place before trying to
boilthe ocean. 

+1

> Comments/thoughts/flames?

Looks good from a quick read.

+  Generally, new committers are selected March or April and announced at
+  PGConf.dev (and historically its predecessor PGCon).

That's not entirely correct anymore, it should probably be "on the -hackers
mailing list" or something similar?

--
Daniel Gustafsson

On 6/19/24 09:56, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 15:50, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
> 
>> There is more that can and should be done here, but I was hoping to get this set of changes in place before trying
toboil the ocean.
 
> 
> +1
> 
>> Comments/thoughts/flames?
> 
> Looks good from a quick read.
> 
> +  Generally, new committers are selected March or April and announced at
> +  PGConf.dev (and historically its predecessor PGCon).
> 
> That's not entirely correct anymore, it should probably be "on the -hackers
> mailing list" or something similar?

Yeah -- I lifted that directly from the wiki page, but will fix.

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> writes:
> On 6/19/24 09:56, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> That's not entirely correct anymore, it should probably be "on the -hackers
>> mailing list" or something similar?

> Yeah -- I lifted that directly from the wiki page, but will fix.

Also, "added ... by the Core Team" doesn't really describe the
committer selection process anymore either.  It should read
more like "New committers are added approximately annually
after discussions and vote among the existing committers".

In principle I think core retains a right of veto, but I would
be pretty astonished if there were ever a desire to exercise it
(nor would I care to bet on the outcome if that did happen).

            regards, tom lane

On 6/19/24 11:10, Tom Lane wrote:
> Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> writes:
>> On 6/19/24 09:56, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>> That's not entirely correct anymore, it should probably be "on the -hackers
>>> mailing list" or something similar?
> 
>> Yeah -- I lifted that directly from the wiki page, but will fix.
> 
> Also, "added ... by the Core Team" doesn't really describe the
> committer selection process anymore either.  It should read
> more like "New committers are added approximately annually
> after discussions and vote among the existing committers".

Thanks -- I updated the wiki as well as my locally patched copy of pg.o.

What is the process for getting pgweb changes committed? Assuming there 
is consensus, can I go ahead and push them? Or put another way, who are 
the pgweb committers?

> In principle I think core retains a right of veto, but I would
> be pretty astonished if there were ever a desire to exercise it
> (nor would I care to bet on the outcome if that did happen).

Fair enough. I think the Core team right-to-veto applies to pretty much 
every aspect of the project, so maybe we don't need to state it all over 
the place. Should we add a statement to that effect to the bulleted list 
here?

   https://www.postgresql.org/developer/core/

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

> On 19 Jun 2024, at 18:54, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:

> What is the process for getting pgweb changes committed?

It's usually done in roughly the same was as for the main repo, once the patch
is reviewed and +1'd on the list it can go in.

> Assuming there is consensus, can I go ahead and push them?

+1 from me. I have a few comments on the markup to make it valid HTML:

+</p>
+</p>

Double closing tags.

+<p>
+  The current members are:
+  <ul>

<ul> is defined as flow content and not allowed inside a <p> paragraph.  You
need to end the paragrapg after "are:". Same thing in a few more places.

+    <li>Álvaro Herrera</li>

Should use HTML entities: Álvaro Herrera

+  <a href="about/sponsors/">Sponsors</a> pages, not here.

Should this be /about/sponsors/ ?

> Or put another way, who are the pgweb committers?

If you don't have a commit bit for pgweb, you can ping myself, Jonathan,
Magnus, Stefan or Dave.

--
Daniel Gustafsson

On 6/19/24 14:09, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 18:54, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
> 
>> What is the process for getting pgweb changes committed?
> 
> It's usually done in roughly the same was as for the main repo, once the patch
> is reviewed and +1'd on the list it can go in.
> 
>> Assuming there is consensus, can I go ahead and push them?
> 
> +1 from me. I have a few comments on the markup to make it valid HTML:
> 
> +</p>
> +</p>

good catch, thanks

> Double closing tags.
> 
> +<p>
> +  The current members are:
> +  <ul>
> 
> <ul> is defined as flow content and not allowed inside a <p> paragraph.  You
> need to end the paragrapg after "are:". Same thing in a few more places.

Admittedly I had no idea about this requirement. In fact I actively 
placed them all inside the paragraphs -- will fix :-)

> +    <li>Álvaro Herrera</li>
> 
> Should use HTML entities: Álvaro Herrera

check

> +  <a href="about/sponsors/">Sponsors</a> pages, not here.
> 
> Should this be /about/sponsors/ ?

probably -- will fix

>> Or put another way, who are the pgweb committers?
> 
> If you don't have a commit bit for pgweb, you can ping myself, Jonathan,
> Magnus, Stefan or Dave.

Being on sysadmins I may have the ability to commit, but not necessarily 
the right to do so ;-)

I will post another patch with these fixes, and then if you want me to 
push I will give it a try, or else if you prefer me to defer to one of 
the rightful committers I can do that too.

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

On 6/19/24 14:58, Joe Conway wrote:
> On 6/19/24 14:09, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> If you don't have a commit bit for pgweb, you can ping myself, Jonathan,
>> Magnus, Stefan or Dave.
> 
> Being on sysadmins I may have the ability to commit, but not necessarily
> the right to do so ;-)
> 
> I will post another patch with these fixes, and then if you want me to
> push I will give it a try, or else if you prefer me to defer to one of
> the rightful committers I can do that too.

This version addresses your comments. I found a few other places where I 
had similar infelicities and fixed those too.

Any other comments or concerns?

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:01, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/19/24 14:58, Joe Conway wrote:
>> On 6/19/24 14:09, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>> If you don't have a commit bit for pgweb, you can ping myself, Jonathan,
>>> Magnus, Stefan or Dave.
>> Being on sysadmins I may have the ability to commit, but not necessarily
>> the right to do so ;-)
>> I will post another patch with these fixes, and then if you want me to
>> push I will give it a try, or else if you prefer me to defer to one of
>> the rightful committers I can do that too.
>
> This version addresses your comments. I found a few other places where I had similar infelicities and fixed those
too.
>
> Any other comments or concerns?

LGTM, thanks!

--
Daniel Gustafsson

On 6/19/24 16:08, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:01, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 6/19/24 14:58, Joe Conway wrote:
>>> On 6/19/24 14:09, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>>> If you don't have a commit bit for pgweb, you can ping myself, Jonathan,
>>>> Magnus, Stefan or Dave.
>>> Being on sysadmins I may have the ability to commit, but not necessarily
>>> the right to do so ;-)
>>> I will post another patch with these fixes, and then if you want me to
>>> push I will give it a try, or else if you prefer me to defer to one of
>>> the rightful committers I can do that too.
>> 
>> This version addresses your comments. I found a few other places where I had similar infelicities and fixed those
too.
>> 
>> Any other comments or concerns?
> 
> LGTM, thanks!


Looks like I have push access on pgweb-static due to my sysadmin 
release-day duties, but not pgweb itself. So someone else will need to 
push the changes unless I am told to give myself access ;-)

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:32, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/19/24 16:08, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:01, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>>> On 6/19/24 14:58, Joe Conway wrote:
>>>> On 6/19/24 14:09, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>>>> If you don't have a commit bit for pgweb, you can ping myself, Jonathan,
>>>>> Magnus, Stefan or Dave.
>>>> Being on sysadmins I may have the ability to commit, but not necessarily
>>>> the right to do so ;-)
>>>> I will post another patch with these fixes, and then if you want me to
>>>> push I will give it a try, or else if you prefer me to defer to one of
>>>> the rightful committers I can do that too.
>>> This version addresses your comments. I found a few other places where I had similar infelicities and fixed those
too.
>>> Any other comments or concerns?
>> LGTM, thanks!
>
> Looks like I have push access on pgweb-static due to my sysadmin release-day duties, but not pgweb itself. So someone
elsewill need to push the changes unless I am told to give myself access ;-) 

While it's not my call, personally as a pgweb committer I think your commitbit
should cover pgweb as well.

--
Daniel Gustafsson

Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> writes:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 at 22:01, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 10:53 PM Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se>
>>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:32, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>>>> Looks like I have push access on pgweb-static due to my sysadmin
>>>> release-day duties, but not pgweb itself. So someone else will need to push
>>>> the changes unless I am told to give myself access ;-)

>>> While it's not my call, personally as a pgweb committer I think your
>>> commitbit should cover pgweb as well.

>> +1.

> +1 - go for it.

+1 --- give yourself that commit bit.

            regards, tom lane

On 6/20/24 4:07 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> writes:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 at 22:01, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 10:53 PM Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se>
>>>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:32, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>>>>> Looks like I have push access on pgweb-static due to my sysadmin
>>>>> release-day duties, but not pgweb itself. So someone else will need to push
>>>>> the changes unless I am told to give myself access ;-)
> 
>>>> While it's not my call, personally as a pgweb committer I think your
>>>> commitbit should cover pgweb as well.
> 
>>> +1.
> 
>> +1 - go for it.
> 
> +1 --- give yourself that commit bit.

+1 on pushing the patch, +0 on commit bit due to Joe & I working 
together at $DAYJOB.

Jonathan

On 6/20/24 08:18, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> On 6/20/24 4:07 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> writes:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 at 22:01, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 10:53 PM Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se>
>>>>> On 19 Jun 2024, at 22:32, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Looks like I have push access on pgweb-static due to my sysadmin
>>>>>> release-day duties, but not pgweb itself. So someone else will need to push
>>>>>> the changes unless I am told to give myself access ;-)
>> 
>>>>> While it's not my call, personally as a pgweb committer I think your
>>>>> commitbit should cover pgweb as well.
>> 
>>>> +1.
>> 
>>> +1 - go for it.
>> 
>> +1 --- give yourself that commit bit.
> 
> +1 on pushing the patch, +0 on commit bit due to Joe & I working
> together at $DAYJOB.


Pushed. It looks good to me -- please let me know if you see anything off.

Since the committers[1] and sysadmin[2] pages are now on pg.o, shall I 
remove them from the wiki? Or wait some amount of time?

Thanks,

[1] https://www.postgresql.org/developer/committers/
[2] https://www.postgresql.org/about/governance/sysadmin/
-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

On 6/20/24 10:21, Dave Page wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 at 14:55, Joe Conway wrote:
>     Since the committers[1] and sysadmin[2] pages are now on pg.o, shall I
>     remove them from the wiki? Or wait some amount of time?
> 
> I'd clear them out, and replace the content with a link to the new pages.


Oh, right. Yeah I was actually planning to suggest that and then 
promptly forgot when I wrote that email. Will do :-)

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

On 6/20/24 11:08, Joe Conway wrote:
> On 6/20/24 10:21, Dave Page wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 at 14:55, Joe Conway wrote:
>>     Since the committers[1] and sysadmin[2] pages are now on pg.o, shall I
>>     remove them from the wiki? Or wait some amount of time?
>> 
>> I'd clear them out, and replace the content with a link to the new pages.
> 
> Oh, right. Yeah I was actually planning to suggest that and then
> promptly forgot when I wrote that email. Will do :-)

And done:

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Infrastructure_team
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Committers

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

On 6/20/24 11:27 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 at 16:23, Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com 
> <mailto:mail@joeconway.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On 6/20/24 11:08, Joe Conway wrote:
>      > On 6/20/24 10:21, Dave Page wrote:
>      >> On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 at 14:55, Joe Conway wrote:
>      >>     Since the committers[1] and sysadmin[2] pages are now on
>     pg.o, shall I
>      >>     remove them from the wiki? Or wait some amount of time?
>      >>
>      >> I'd clear them out, and replace the content with a link to the
>     new pages.
>      >
>      > Oh, right. Yeah I was actually planning to suggest that and then
>      > promptly forgot when I wrote that email. Will do :-)
> 
>     And done:
> 
>     https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Infrastructure_team
>     <https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Infrastructure_team>
>     https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Committers
>     <https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Committers>
> 
> 
> Thanks for handling this!

+100; this is a step forward in highlighting how people contribute to 
PostgreSQL and recognizing their efforts. That said, there's still work 
to do on that front, and looking forward to the next patches ;)

Jonathan

On 19/06/2024 15:50, Joe Conway wrote:
> As discussed during the PGConf.dev developer meeting, here is a first 
> pass attempt at a patch for pg.o to add a "Governance Directory" page, 
> along with a few supporting new pages. Specifically it proposes to 
> move the "Committers" and "Sysadmin" pages off the wiki and onto pg.o, 
> and adds pages for the Contributors Committee and Recognized 
> Contributors Policy (as discussed back in February at FOSDEM).
>
> There is more that can and should be done here, but I was hoping to 
> get this set of changes in place before trying to boil the ocean.
> * More/missing teams/committees
> * Add "how to volunteer/help" to individual team pages
> * Other stuff?
>
> Comments/thoughts/flames?
>

While I know it's a hot topic, I think the funds group is quite well hidden.

One has to go "Non Profit Organizations" and then it's mentioned under
"Other PostgreSQL efforts".

The entire page is odd: it's linked as "NPOs" from the "Governance" page,
but the title is "Donate".

The "Donate" page covers two different topics:

- NGOs (PGCA, other NGOs) + groups (funds group)
- Donations

I get that this is about the "Donate" buttons, but the structure and mixed
content is not what one can expect on a "Donate" page - which is also
linked as "Donate" in the menu. I don't expect the list of NGOs and groups
there.

Probably split this up into two pages? And move funds group to the
"Governance" page as well?



Regards,

-- 
                Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group
European PostgreSQL User Group - Board of Directors
Volunteer Regional Contact, Germany - PostgreSQL Project

On 7/5/24 05:51, Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum wrote:
> On 19/06/2024 15:50, Joe Conway wrote:
>> As discussed during the PGConf.dev developer meeting, here is a first 
>> pass attempt at a patch for pg.o to add a "Governance Directory" page, 
>> along with a few supporting new pages. Specifically it proposes to 
>> move the "Committers" and "Sysadmin" pages off the wiki and onto pg.o, 
>> and adds pages for the Contributors Committee and Recognized 
>> Contributors Policy (as discussed back in February at FOSDEM).
>>
>> There is more that can and should be done here, but I was hoping to 
>> get this set of changes in place before trying to boil the ocean.
>> * More/missing teams/committees
>> * Add "how to volunteer/help" to individual team pages
>> * Other stuff?
>>
>> Comments/thoughts/flames?
>>
> 
> While I know it's a hot topic, I think the funds group is quite well hidden.
> 
> One has to go "Non Profit Organizations" and then it's mentioned under
> "Other PostgreSQL efforts".
> 
> The entire page is odd: it's linked as "NPOs" from the "Governance" page,
> but the title is "Donate".
> 
> The "Donate" page covers two different topics:
> 
> - NGOs (PGCA, other NGOs) + groups (funds group)
> - Donations
> 
> I get that this is about the "Donate" buttons, but the structure and mixed
> content is not what one can expect on a "Donate" page - which is also
> linked as "Donate" in the menu. I don't expect the list of NGOs and groups
> there.
> 
> Probably split this up into two pages? And move funds group to the
> "Governance" page as well?

Agreed that it is a strange mixture of content. So are you thinking 
something like this?

1. Donate page made to be strictly about donations
2. Create new NPO page with the descriptions and links to the recognized
    NPOs. This page is the one linked from the Governance page.
3. List the Funds Group on the governance page as separate link

While looking at that I thought about some additional adjustments:

1. Remove the Core Team Membership section from the Funds Group page
2. Add some words about "how to become a funds group member" to the
    Fundraising Group Membership section
3. Move the list of members and past members of the Funds Group from
    the wiki and to the Funds Group page
4. Move the Funds Group page from "Policy" to "Governance"
5. Split the bottom part (Voting/Process/Requests) of the current
    Funds Group page off, and create a Funds Group Policy page listed
    under "Policy"

-- 
Joe Conway
PostgreSQL Contributors Team
RDS Open Source Databases
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

On 7/5/24 9:49 AM, Joe Conway wrote:

> Agreed that it is a strange mixture of content. So are you thinking 
> something like this?
> 
> 1. Donate page made to be strictly about donations
> 2. Create new NPO page with the descriptions and links to the recognized
>     NPOs. This page is the one linked from the Governance page.
> 3. List the Funds Group on the governance page as separate link

I agree with this in principle, but would like to see the proposed 
content on the page. We've spent a fair bit of time trying to optimize 
the "donate" page for receiving donations, though I understand it's been 
conflated with some of the NPO info. I would say we prioritize (2) in 
the above.

> While looking at that I thought about some additional adjustments:
> 
> 1. Remove the Core Team Membership section from the Funds Group page

-1; this is part of the charter. This was discussed not too long ago[1].

> 2. Add some words about "how to become a funds group member" to the
>     Fundraising Group Membership section
> 3. Move the list of members and past members of the Funds Group from
>     the wiki and to the Funds Group page
> 4. Move the Funds Group page from "Policy" to "Governance"
> 5. Split the bottom part (Voting/Process/Requests) of the current
>     Funds Group page off, and create a Funds Group Policy page listed
>     under "Policy"

I'm OK (in principle) with the rest of this.

Thanks,

Jonathan

[1] 
https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/flat/87970758-9EF7-401A-8B91-D4A99ADA9EC1%40yesql.se