Обсуждение: pl/pgsql outside the DB, (i.e. on the terminal) possible ?

Hello

I notice both my kids struggling with either C or Python as first 
programming languages. I believe both are unsuitable for use as 
introductory languages to college juniors.

Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich, weird indentation rules, no 
simple for loop etc.

C, ok, punishing little kids with segmentation faults, calling by value 
VS by reference and 3ple pointers is pure sadism.

So this brings me to memory good old PASCAL from the time I was junior, 
circa 1986. PL/SQL resembles PASCAL heavily. Everything seems well 
defined, strong typing, simplicity, I think it has everything a 
programming language should have in order to be taught as an 
introductory language. But it lacks IO and file handling.

So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Thanks!

Am Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 04:56:18PM +0200 schrieb Achilleas Mantzios - cloud:

> Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich,

Python _is_ powerful but it needn't be difficult.

> weird indentation rules

A matter of taste IMO.

> no simple for loop

Really ?

    Python 3.11.2 (main, Mar 13 2023, 12:18:29) [GCC 12.2.0] on linux
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> for idx in [0,1,2,3]: print(idx)
    ...
    0
    1
    2
    3
    >>>

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
> So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the database,
andcreate and run functions and procedures as much as you like. 

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a
differentand much more complex problem.  PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much
anythingthat is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database.  I doubt it
wouldbe worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to
operatewithout PostgreSQL. 

On 3/7/24 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud wrote:
> Hello
> 
> I notice both my kids struggling with either C or Python as first 
> programming languages. I believe both are unsuitable for use as 
> introductory languages to college juniors.

What the cool kids are using:)?

https://www.rust-lang.org/

https://doc.rust-lang.org/rust-by-example/

This old non-professional programmer could see learning this, so young 
minds should be able to grasp it.

> 
> Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich, weird indentation rules, no 
> simple for loop etc.
> 
> C, ok, punishing little kids with segmentation faults, calling by value 
> VS by reference and 3ple pointers is pure sadism.
> 
> So this brings me to memory good old PASCAL from the time I was junior, 
> circa 1986. PL/SQL resembles PASCAL heavily. Everything seems well 
> defined, strong typing, simplicity, I think it has everything a 
> programming language should have in order to be taught as an 
> introductory language. But it lacks IO and file handling.
> 
> So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 11:26 AM Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com> wrote:
> čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com> napsal:
>> > On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
>> > So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?
>>
>> Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the
database,and create and run functions and procedures as much as you like. 
>>
>> If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a
differentand much more complex problem.  PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much
anythingthat is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database.  I doubt it
wouldbe worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to
operatewithout PostgreSQL. 
>
>
> yes
>
> plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler
supportsAda language. 
>
> I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret with Ada syntax, but it is better to learn Python
-it is easy - with a pretty big library. 
>
> free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can write terminal applications too - with Turbo
Vision
>

Of course there's a certain amount of personal preference with all
this stuff. I started with basic and really liked it, and then had to
learn pascal and hated it so much that I decided to eschew programming
for years. If you are just trying to learn for fun, I see no reason
why SQL, paired with data in a database, wouldn't be worth spending
time on. Once you're comfortable with that, I like ruby on the command
line and it interacts nicely with databases, and also works well
within the rails console. That said, my son liked lua when he was a
kid, so yeah, there's lots of options, even if plpgsql on the command
line isn't strictly one of them.

Robert Treat
https://xzilla.net

Στις 7/3/24 17:13, ο/η Karsten Hilbert έγραψε:
> Am Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 04:56:18PM +0200 schrieb Achilleas Mantzios - cloud:
>
>> Python IMHO is too advanced, too rich,
> Python _is_ powerful but it needn't be difficult.
>
>> weird indentation rules
> A matter of taste IMO.
>
>> no simple for loop
> Really ?
>
>     Python 3.11.2 (main, Mar 13 2023, 12:18:29) [GCC 12.2.0] on linux
>     Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>     >>> for idx in [0,1,2,3]: print(idx)


Dude this is like saying that for n=N the statement itself takes O(N) to 
write, this is not only "not-simple", this is a darn anti-pattern , that 
should be avoided at any cost in 1st year of college.


>     ...
>     0
>     1
>     2
>     3
>     >>>
>
> Karsten
> --
> GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B
>
>
-- 
Achilleas Mantzios
  IT DEV - HEAD
  IT DEPT
  Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com> napsal:

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
> So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?

Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the database, and create and run functions and procedures as much as you like.

If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a different and much more complex problem.  PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much anything that is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database.  I doubt it would be worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to operate without PostgreSQL.

yes

plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler supports Ada language.

I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret with Ada syntax, but it is better to learn Python - it is easy - with a pretty big library.

free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can write terminal applications too - with Turbo Vision

Regards

Pavel

-- 
Achilleas Mantzios IT DEV - HEAD IT DEPT Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 11:26 AM Pavel Stehule <pavel.stehule@gmail.com> wrote:
>> čt 7. 3. 2024 v 16:59 odesílatel Christophe Pettus <xof@thebuild.com> napsal:
>>>> On Mar 7, 2024, at 06:56, Achilleas Mantzios - cloud <a.mantzios@cloud.gatewaynet.com> wrote:
>>>> So, I ask, have there been any efforts to bring PL/PGSQL to the terminal?
>>> Strictly speaking, of course, you can use PL/pgSQL from the terminal already: just use psql, connect to the
database,and create and run functions and procedures as much as you like.
 
>>>
>>> If the question is, "Have there been any efforts to implement a PL/pgSQL interpreter without PostgreSQL?", that's a
differentand much more complex problem.  PL/pgSQL uses the PostgreSQL query execution machinery to run pretty much
anythingthat is not a control structure, and the language is very focused on interacting with the database.  I doubt it
wouldbe worth anyone's time to try to build some kind of minimal framework that implements the SPI to allow PL/pgSQL to
operatewithout PostgreSQL.
 
>>
>> yes
>>
>> plpgsql cannot exist without Postgres. PL/pgSQL is strongly reduced interpreted Ada language. The gcc compiler
supportsAda language.
 
>>
>> I found https://bush.sourceforge.net/bushref.html - it is interpret with Ada syntax, but it is better to learn
Python- it is easy - with a pretty big library.
 
>>
>> free pascal https://www.freepascal.org/ is good compiler and you can write terminal applications too - with Turbo
Vision
>>
> Of course there's a certain amount of personal preference with all
> this stuff. I started with basic and really liked it, and then had to
> learn pascal and hated it so much that I decided to eschew programming
> for years. If you are just trying to learn for fun, I see no reason
> why SQL, paired with data in a database, wouldn't be worth spending
> time on. Once you're comfortable with that, I like ruby on the command
> line and it interacts nicely with databases, and also works well
> within the rails console. That said, my son liked lua when he was a
> kid, so yeah, there's lots of options, even if plpgsql on the command

I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers of 
this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the classes 
seems so wrong in every aspect.

What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?

> line isn't strictly one of them.
>
> Robert Treat
> https://xzilla.net

-- 
Achilleas Mantzios
  IT DEV - HEAD
  IT DEPT
  Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

Am Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:04:21PM +0200 schrieb Achilleas Mantzios:

> >    Python 3.11.2 (main, Mar 13 2023, 12:18:29) [GCC 12.2.0] on linux
> >    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >    >>> for idx in [0,1,2,3]: print(idx)
>
> Dude this is like saying that for n=N the statement itself takes O(N) to write

You do realize this is a conceptual example ...

> that should be avoided at any cost
> in 1st year of college.

.. which I'd fully expect to be teachable to 1st year of
college folks ?

However, let's refrain from discussing that _here_.

Thanks,
Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

On 3/7/24 10:13, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:
> Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:

> 
> I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers of 
> this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the classes 
> seems so wrong in every aspect.

Seems to me you need to tackle this from the other end, that is what are 
you looking for in a first language?

> 
> What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?
> 
>> line isn't strictly one of them.
>>
>> Robert Treat
>> https://xzilla.net
> 

-- 
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

Στις 7/3/24 21:29, ο/η Adrian Klaver έγραψε:
> On 3/7/24 10:13, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:
>> Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:
>
>>
>> I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers 
>> of this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the 
>> classes seems so wrong in every aspect.
>
> Seems to me you need to tackle this from the other end, that is what 
> are you looking for in a first language?

Something like good ol Pascal, just a little more market-correct to make 
it viable. Something that puts sanity and simplicity above impression or 
anything else. C or Python as first languages (like seems the norm among 
UNIs) is suicidal. I am strongly against it. Kids just dont learn the 
essentials. And the path goes like , simple -> lower lever (C/Assembly) 
, but also higher level (C++/Java/Python/etc). Destroying their minds by 
starting with Python or C just minimizes the chances for future great C 
programmers or Java/Python programmers.

Ppl from the community already expressed to me the shortage of new ppl 
willing to write system level (linux/postgersql) C code. And nothing is 
accidental.

>
>>
>> What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?
>>
>>> line isn't strictly one of them.
>>>
>>> Robert Treat
>>> https://xzilla.net
>>
>
-- 
Achilleas Mantzios
  IT DEV - HEAD
  IT DEPT
  Dynacom Tankers Mgmt (as agents only)

On 3/7/24 12:20, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:
> Στις 7/3/24 21:29, ο/η Adrian Klaver έγραψε:
>> On 3/7/24 10:13, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:
>>> Στις 7/3/24 18:44, ο/η Robert Treat έγραψε:
>>
>>>
>>> I am not talking for fun. I am talking about the future programmers 
>>> of this world. Teaching Python or C to them upon arrival to the 
>>> classes seems so wrong in every aspect.
>>
>> Seems to me you need to tackle this from the other end, that is what 
>> are you looking for in a first language?
> 
> Something like good ol Pascal, just a little more market-correct to make 
> it viable. Something that puts sanity and simplicity above impression or 
> anything else. C or Python as first languages (like seems the norm among 
> UNIs) is suicidal. I am strongly against it. Kids just dont learn the 
> essentials. And the path goes like , simple -> lower lever (C/Assembly) 
> , but also higher level (C++/Java/Python/etc). Destroying their minds by 
> starting with Python or C just minimizes the chances for future great C 
> programmers or Java/Python programmers.

Would that not be covered by a theory of programing course series?

I will admit up front this is getting out of my depth, but from my 
experiences with programming languages they, at a high level, all do the 
same thing basically. Transform text into low level operations on a 
machine. Therefore course work on what those low level operations are 
and the way to abstract above the machine code level would seem to me 
the way to go. Then a series of classes that move languages from lower 
to higher level.

> 
> Ppl from the community already expressed to me the shortage of new ppl 
> willing to write system level (linux/postgersql) C code. And nothing is 
> accidental.
> 
>>
>>>
>>> What do UNIs in USA or Europe or Asia teach in 1st semester ?
>>>
>>>> line isn't strictly one of them.
>>>>
>>>> Robert Treat
>>>> https://xzilla.net
>>>
>>

-- 
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com