Обсуждение: Code of Conduct

Keep pg open and free.   This smells of PC police.   This community can police itself

Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon my brevity and typos.   I am not responsible for changes made by this
device’sautocorrect feature. 

Fred Pratt
AmerisourceBergen
Manager – IT Infrastructure
Micro Technologies

8701 CenterPort Blvd<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
Amarillo, TX  79108<x-apple-data-detectors://8>

Work: 806.372.2369 (Ext. 8364)<tel:806.372.2369;8364>
Fax: 855.849.0680<tel:855.849.0680>
Mobile: 806.679.1742<tel:806.679.1742>

microtechnologies.com<http://microtechnologies.com/>

On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:32 AM, ERR ORR <rd0002@gmail.com<mailto:rd0002@gmail.com>> wrote:

I was never consulted.
I was only Told that there was a CoC "to be". Not when, not how.
A CoC will inevitably lead to the project taken over by leftists, political and technical decisions will be made by
others.
Most important from my PoV, the projects quality will decrease until its made unviable.
As others have said, this was rammed down our throats.
Before you ppl become unemployed, read "SJWs always lie". You'll know what awaits you.
As for myself, I'll be on the lookout for another DB. One that's not infiltrated by leftist nuts.

And Dave, you can tell the core team a big "FUCK YOU" for this.

James Keener <jim@jimkeener.com<mailto:jim@jimkeener.com>> schrieb am Di., 18. Sep. 2018, 13:48:
> following a long consultation process

It's not a consultation if any dissenting voice is simply ignored. Don't sugar-coat or politicize it like this -- it
wasrammed down everyone's throats. That is core's right, but don't act as everyone's opinions and concerns were taken
intoconsideration. There are a good number of folks who are concerned that this CoC is overreaching and is ripe for
abuse.Those concerns were always simply, plainly, and purposely ignored. 

> Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in. 

I sincerely hope so, and that it doesn't become a tool to enforce social ideology like in other groups I've been part
of.Especially since this is the main place to come to get help for PostgreSQL and not a social club. 

Jim

On September 18, 2018 6:27:56 AM EDT, Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org<mailto:dpage@postgresql.org>> wrote:
The PostgreSQL Core team are pleased to announce that following a long consultation process, the project’s Code of
Conduct(CoC) has now been finalised and published at https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/coc/. 

Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in. 

A Code of Conduct Committee has been formed to handle any complaints. This consists of the following volunteers:

- Stacey Haysler (Chair)
- Lætitia Avrot
- Vik Fearing
- Jonathan Katz
- Ilya Kosmodemiansky

We would like to extend our thanks and gratitude to Stacey Haysler for her patience and expertise in helping develop
theCode of Conduct, forming the committee and guiding the work to completion. 

--
Dave Page
PostgreSQL Core Team
http://www.postgresql.org/
<http://www.postgresql.org/>

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Keep pg open and free.   This smells of PC police.   This community can police itself

Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon my brevity and typos.   I am not responsible for changes made by this
device’sautocorrect feature. 

Fred Pratt
AmerisourceBergen
Manager – IT Infrastructure
Micro Technologies

8701 CenterPort Blvd<x-apple-data-detectors://8>
Amarillo, TX  79108<x-apple-data-detectors://8>

Work: 806.372.2369 (Ext. 8364)<tel:806.372.2369;8364>
Fax: 855.849.0680<tel:855.849.0680>
Mobile: 806.679.1742<tel:806.679.1742>

microtechnologies.com<http://microtechnologies.com/>

On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:32 AM, ERR ORR <rd0002@gmail.com<mailto:rd0002@gmail.com>> wrote:

I was never consulted.
I was only Told that there was a CoC "to be". Not when, not how.
A CoC will inevitably lead to the project taken over by leftists, political and technical decisions will be made by
others.
Most important from my PoV, the projects quality will decrease until its made unviable.
As others have said, this was rammed down our throats.
Before you ppl become unemployed, read "SJWs always lie". You'll know what awaits you.
As for myself, I'll be on the lookout for another DB. One that's not infiltrated by leftist nuts.

And Dave, you can tell the core team a big "FUCK YOU" for this.

James Keener <jim@jimkeener.com<mailto:jim@jimkeener.com>> schrieb am Di., 18. Sep. 2018, 13:48:
> following a long consultation process

It's not a consultation if any dissenting voice is simply ignored. Don't sugar-coat or politicize it like this -- it
wasrammed down everyone's throats. That is core's right, but don't act as everyone's opinions and concerns were taken
intoconsideration. There are a good number of folks who are concerned that this CoC is overreaching and is ripe for
abuse.Those concerns were always simply, plainly, and purposely ignored. 

> Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in. 

I sincerely hope so, and that it doesn't become a tool to enforce social ideology like in other groups I've been part
of.Especially since this is the main place to come to get help for PostgreSQL and not a social club. 

Jim

On September 18, 2018 6:27:56 AM EDT, Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org<mailto:dpage@postgresql.org>> wrote:
The PostgreSQL Core team are pleased to announce that following a long consultation process, the project’s Code of
Conduct(CoC) has now been finalised and published at https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/coc/. 

Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in. 

A Code of Conduct Committee has been formed to handle any complaints. This consists of the following volunteers:

- Stacey Haysler (Chair)
- Lætitia Avrot
- Vik Fearing
- Jonathan Katz
- Ilya Kosmodemiansky

We would like to extend our thanks and gratitude to Stacey Haysler for her patience and expertise in helping develop
theCode of Conduct, forming the committee and guiding the work to completion. 

--
Dave Page
PostgreSQL Core Team
http://www.postgresql.org/
<http://www.postgresql.org/>

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Fred Pratt
<fpratt@microtechnologies.com> wrote:
> Keep pg open and free.   This smells of PC police.   This community can police itself
No comment on this, just kept for context.

> Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon my brevity and typos.   I am not responsible for changes made by this
device’sautocorrect feature. 

I will happily pardon brevity ( although I would not call a ten line
sig plus a huge bottom quote "breve", and AFAIK it means the same in
english as in spanish ) and/or typos, but the "I am not responsible"
feels nearly insulting. Did someone force you to use "this device" (
which you seem to perceive as inadequate for a nice answer ) to reply,
or did you choose to do it ? ( real, not rethoric question, but do not
answer if you feel  its inadequate )


As an aside, is this kind of afirmations and/or my response to it a
violation of the current CoC ?

Francisco Olarte.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Fred Pratt
<fpratt@microtechnologies.com> wrote:
> Keep pg open and free.   This smells of PC police.   This community can police itself
No comment on this, just kept for context.

> Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon my brevity and typos.   I am not responsible for changes made by this
device’sautocorrect feature. 

I will happily pardon brevity ( although I would not call a ten line
sig plus a huge bottom quote "breve", and AFAIK it means the same in
english as in spanish ) and/or typos, but the "I am not responsible"
feels nearly insulting. Did someone force you to use "this device" (
which you seem to perceive as inadequate for a nice answer ) to reply,
or did you choose to do it ? ( real, not rethoric question, but do not
answer if you feel  its inadequate )


As an aside, is this kind of afirmations and/or my response to it a
violation of the current CoC ?

Francisco Olarte.

Greetings,

* Francisco Olarte (folarte@peoplecall.com) wrote:
> I will happily pardon brevity ( although I would not call a ten line
> sig plus a huge bottom quote "breve", and AFAIK it means the same in
> english as in spanish ) and/or typos, but the "I am not responsible"
> feels nearly insulting. Did someone force you to use "this device" (
> which you seem to perceive as inadequate for a nice answer ) to reply,
> or did you choose to do it ? ( real, not rethoric question, but do not
> answer if you feel  its inadequate )

Let's please try to keep the off-topic discussion on these lists to a
minimum.

> As an aside, is this kind of afirmations and/or my response to it a
> violation of the current CoC ?

There's a way to find out the answer to that question, but it's
certainly not to send an email to this list asking about it.  Please
review the policy, and follow the process outlined there if you feel the
need to.

Thanks!

Stephen

Greetings,

* Francisco Olarte (folarte@peoplecall.com) wrote:
> I will happily pardon brevity ( although I would not call a ten line
> sig plus a huge bottom quote "breve", and AFAIK it means the same in
> english as in spanish ) and/or typos, but the "I am not responsible"
> feels nearly insulting. Did someone force you to use "this device" (
> which you seem to perceive as inadequate for a nice answer ) to reply,
> or did you choose to do it ? ( real, not rethoric question, but do not
> answer if you feel  its inadequate )

Let's please try to keep the off-topic discussion on these lists to a
minimum.

> As an aside, is this kind of afirmations and/or my response to it a
> violation of the current CoC ?

There's a way to find out the answer to that question, but it's
certainly not to send an email to this list asking about it.  Please
review the policy, and follow the process outlined there if you feel the
need to.

Thanks!

Stephen

Sorry, I emailed using my company account and thus the long sig.   In an effort to avoid further insulting Mr Olarte, I
willdelete it this time.    See, Self-policing works ! 

Fred

Sorry, I emailed using my company account and thus the long sig.   In an effort to avoid further insulting Mr Olarte, I
willdelete it this time.    See, Self-policing works ! 

Fred

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:28 AM Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org> wrote:
>
> The PostgreSQL Core team are pleased to announce that following a long consultation process, the project’s Code of
Conduct(CoC) has now been finalised and published at https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/coc/. 
>
> Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in. 
>
> A Code of Conduct Committee has been formed to handle any complaints. This consists of the following volunteers:
>
> - Stacey Haysler (Chair)
> - Lætitia Avrot
> - Vik Fearing
> - Jonathan Katz
> - Ilya Kosmodemiansky
>
> We would like to extend our thanks and gratitude to Stacey Haysler for her patience and expertise in helping develop
theCode of Conduct, forming the committee and guiding the work to completion. 

My thanks to all who participated.

FWIW, my view is that a CoC shares one very important characteristic
with coding style guides: it's not as important what the details are
as that you have one and everyone pays attention to it.  I was in an
early PGCon meeting on the topic, and offered some opinions early in
the process, so many of you may remember that my view was to keep it
short and simple -- a wide net with broad mesh, and trust that with
competent application nothing would slip through.

My biggest concern about the current document is that it is hard to
make it from start to end, reading every word.  To check my
(admittedly subjective) impression, I put it through the free
"Readability Test Tool" at
https://www.webpagefx.com/tools/read-able/check.php (pasting the
document itself into the "TEST BY DIRECT INPUT" tab so that page
menus, footers, etc. were not included in the score), and got this:

"""
Test Results:
Your text has an average grade level of about 16. It should be easily
understood by 21 to 22 year olds.
"""

Now, on the whole that doesn't sound too bad, since the audience
should be mature and educated enough to deal with that, but it does
suggest that it might be a bit of a burden on some for whom English is
not their first language (unless we have translations?).

Further detail:

"""
Readability Indices

Flesch Kincaid Reading Ease 32.2
Flesch Kincaid Grade Level 15.2
Gunning Fog Score 18.3
SMOG Index 13.9
Coleman Liau Index 14.8
Automated Readability Index 16

Text Statistics

No. of sentences 65
No. of words 1681
No. of complex words 379
Percent of complex words 22.55%
Average words per sentence 25.86
Average syllables per word 1.75
"""

Note that the page mentions that the Flesch Kincaid Reading Ease score
is based on a 0-100 scale. A high score means the text is easier to
read. Low scores suggest the text is complicated to understand.  A
value between 60 and 80 should be easy for a 12 to 15 year old to
understand.  Our score was 32.2.

Perhaps in next year's review we could try to ease this a little.

In the meantime, I was very happy to see the so many new faces at
PostgresOpen SV 2018; maybe it's just a happy coincidence, but if this
effort had anything to do with drawing in more people, it was well
worth the effort!

Kevin Grittner

--
Kevin Grittner
VMware vCenter Server
https://www.vmware.com/

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:28 AM Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org> wrote:
>
> The PostgreSQL Core team are pleased to announce that following a long consultation process, the project’s Code of
Conduct(CoC) has now been finalised and published at https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/coc/. 
>
> Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in. 
>
> A Code of Conduct Committee has been formed to handle any complaints. This consists of the following volunteers:
>
> - Stacey Haysler (Chair)
> - Lætitia Avrot
> - Vik Fearing
> - Jonathan Katz
> - Ilya Kosmodemiansky
>
> We would like to extend our thanks and gratitude to Stacey Haysler for her patience and expertise in helping develop
theCode of Conduct, forming the committee and guiding the work to completion. 

My thanks to all who participated.

FWIW, my view is that a CoC shares one very important characteristic
with coding style guides: it's not as important what the details are
as that you have one and everyone pays attention to it.  I was in an
early PGCon meeting on the topic, and offered some opinions early in
the process, so many of you may remember that my view was to keep it
short and simple -- a wide net with broad mesh, and trust that with
competent application nothing would slip through.

My biggest concern about the current document is that it is hard to
make it from start to end, reading every word.  To check my
(admittedly subjective) impression, I put it through the free
"Readability Test Tool" at
https://www.webpagefx.com/tools/read-able/check.php (pasting the
document itself into the "TEST BY DIRECT INPUT" tab so that page
menus, footers, etc. were not included in the score), and got this:

"""
Test Results:
Your text has an average grade level of about 16. It should be easily
understood by 21 to 22 year olds.
"""

Now, on the whole that doesn't sound too bad, since the audience
should be mature and educated enough to deal with that, but it does
suggest that it might be a bit of a burden on some for whom English is
not their first language (unless we have translations?).

Further detail:

"""
Readability Indices

Flesch Kincaid Reading Ease 32.2
Flesch Kincaid Grade Level 15.2
Gunning Fog Score 18.3
SMOG Index 13.9
Coleman Liau Index 14.8
Automated Readability Index 16

Text Statistics

No. of sentences 65
No. of words 1681
No. of complex words 379
Percent of complex words 22.55%
Average words per sentence 25.86
Average syllables per word 1.75
"""

Note that the page mentions that the Flesch Kincaid Reading Ease score
is based on a 0-100 scale. A high score means the text is easier to
read. Low scores suggest the text is complicated to understand.  A
value between 60 and 80 should be easy for a 12 to 15 year old to
understand.  Our score was 32.2.

Perhaps in next year's review we could try to ease this a little.

In the meantime, I was very happy to see the so many new faces at
PostgresOpen SV 2018; maybe it's just a happy coincidence, but if this
effort had anything to do with drawing in more people, it was well
worth the effort!

Kevin Grittner

--
Kevin Grittner
VMware vCenter Server
https://www.vmware.com/

On 09/19/2018 04:27 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:28 AM Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org> wrote:
>> The PostgreSQL Core team are pleased to announce that following a long consultation process, the project’s Code of
Conduct(CoC) has now been finalised and published at https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/coc/.
 
>>
>> Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in.
 
>>
>> A Code of Conduct Committee has been formed to handle any complaints. This consists of the following volunteers:
>>
>> - Stacey Haysler (Chair)
>> - Lætitia Avrot
>> - Vik Fearing
>> - Jonathan Katz
>> - Ilya Kosmodemiansky
>>
>> We would like to extend our thanks and gratitude to Stacey Haysler for her patience and expertise in helping develop
theCode of Conduct, forming the committee and guiding the work to completion.
 
> My thanks to all who participated.


Indeed, many thanks.

[...]
> In the meantime, I was very happy to see the so many new faces at
> PostgresOpen SV 2018; maybe it's just a happy coincidence, but if this
> effort had anything to do with drawing in more people, it was well
> worth the effort!
>


Yeah. The crowd also seemed noticeably more diverse than I have usually 
seen at Postgres conferences. That's a small beginning, but it's a 
welcome development.

cheers

andrew


-- 
Andrew Dunstan                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On 09/19/2018 04:27 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:28 AM Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org> wrote:
>> The PostgreSQL Core team are pleased to announce that following a long consultation process, the project’s Code of
Conduct(CoC) has now been finalised and published at https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/coc/.
 
>>
>> Please take time to read and understand the CoC, which is intended to ensure that PostgreSQL remains an open and
enjoyableproject for anyone to join and participate in.
 
>>
>> A Code of Conduct Committee has been formed to handle any complaints. This consists of the following volunteers:
>>
>> - Stacey Haysler (Chair)
>> - Lætitia Avrot
>> - Vik Fearing
>> - Jonathan Katz
>> - Ilya Kosmodemiansky
>>
>> We would like to extend our thanks and gratitude to Stacey Haysler for her patience and expertise in helping develop
theCode of Conduct, forming the committee and guiding the work to completion.
 
> My thanks to all who participated.


Indeed, many thanks.

[...]
> In the meantime, I was very happy to see the so many new faces at
> PostgresOpen SV 2018; maybe it's just a happy coincidence, but if this
> effort had anything to do with drawing in more people, it was well
> worth the effort!
>


Yeah. The crowd also seemed noticeably more diverse than I have usually 
seen at Postgres conferences. That's a small beginning, but it's a 
welcome development.

cheers

andrew


-- 
Andrew Dunstan                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services