Обсуждение: PostgreSQL training recommendations?

Hi pgsql-general,

I'm looking for advice on good training courses for PostgreSQL (on- or off-site, on- or off-line).  I'm hoping to find
somethingthat can cover basic administration, performance optimization topics, and clustering tools like Slony and
pgpoolfor someone.  I realize that PostgreSQL documentation is a great resource, but I'm looking for something more
intensiveand expert-driven.  Do any of you have recommendations based on courses you took, had colleagues take, or
teachyourself? 

Thanks in advance,
Matt Kappel

I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick
answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training

But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you
don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is
on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves
reasonably enough into detail where
needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB
theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not
easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than
enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool).

best regards,
Thalis K.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Matthew Kappel <mkappel@cray.com> wrote:
> Hi pgsql-general,
>
> I'm looking for advice on good training courses for PostgreSQL (on- or off-site, on- or off-line).  I'm hoping to
findsomething that can cover basic administration, performance optimization topics, and clustering tools like Slony and
pgpoolfor someone.  I realize that PostgreSQL documentation is a great resource, but I'm looking for something more
intensiveand expert-driven.  Do any of you have recommendations based on courses you took, had colleagues take, or
teachyourself? 
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Matt Kappel
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:53:14PM -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote:
> I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick
> answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training
>
> But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you
> don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is
> on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves
> reasonably enough into detail where
> needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB
> theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not
> easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than
> enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool).

I think the big thing the training manual is missing is giving
inexperienced users a framework to understand all the pieces.  Training
does help in that area, and I am unclear how we could improve the manual
to address that.

--
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + It's impossible for everything to be true. +

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:34:37PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:53:14PM -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote:
> > I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick
> > answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training
> >
> > But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you
> > don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is
> > on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves
> > reasonably enough into detail where
> > needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB
> > theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not
> > easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than
> > enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool).
>
> I think the big thing the training manual is missing is giving
> inexperienced users a framework to understand all the pieces.  Training
> does help in that area, and I am unclear how we could improve the manual
> to address that.

As a disclaimer, I should add that I do training for EnterpriseDB.  I
think the communication of a mental framework in understanding Postgres
is one of the most valuable things I can give students.  I think my
presentations have a similar focus:

    http://momjian.us/main/presentations/

--
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + It's impossible for everything to be true. +

True about the lack of framework putting the pieces together and
providing an overview.

Also IMHO another difficulty the manual poses is that the reader doesn't
have a way to confirm his level of understanding after reading a
chapter.

Letting aside the concepts for which creating a scenario/test-case are
downright complex, hard to reproduce or dependent on a
per-installation basis, the learning experience could greatly benefit
from a pg-tailored Q&A section at the end of each chapter. Perhaps
even a downloadable test database to play with? And not wanting to
just be lighting fires here, I'd be happy to volunteer.

Now I'd understand the Pg manual writers being reluctant about
shifting from manual to DB-book, but I'm guessing, the manual being as
well written as it is, that many of us are already using it as a
learning book anyway.


best regards,
Thalis K.




On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:34:37PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:53:14PM -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote:
>> > I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick
>> > answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training
>> >
>> > But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you
>> > don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is
>> > on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves
>> > reasonably enough into detail where
>> > needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB
>> > theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not
>> > easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than
>> > enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool).
>>
>> I think the big thing the training manual is missing is giving
>> inexperienced users a framework to understand all the pieces.  Training
>> does help in that area, and I am unclear how we could improve the manual
>> to address that.
>
> As a disclaimer, I should add that I do training for EnterpriseDB.  I
> think the communication of a mental framework in understanding Postgres
> is one of the most valuable things I can give students.  I think my
> presentations have a similar focus:
>
>         http://momjian.us/main/presentations/
>
> --
>   Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us
>   EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com
>
>   + It's impossible for everything to be true. +

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-
> owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Thalis Kalfigkopoulos
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:24 PM
> To: Bruce Momjian
> Cc: Matthew Kappel; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
>
> True about the lack of framework putting the pieces together and providing
> an overview.
>
> Also IMHO another difficulty the manual poses is that the reader doesn't
> have a way to confirm his level of understanding after reading a chapter.
>
> Letting aside the concepts for which creating a scenario/test-case are
> downright complex, hard to reproduce or dependent on a per-installation
> basis, the learning experience could greatly benefit from a pg-tailored
Q&A
> section at the end of each chapter. Perhaps even a downloadable test
> database to play with? And not wanting to just be lighting fires here, I'd
be
> happy to volunteer.
>
> Now I'd understand the Pg manual writers being reluctant about shifting
> from manual to DB-book, but I'm guessing, the manual being as well written
> as it is, that many of us are already using it as a learning book anyway.
>
>
> best regards,
> Thalis K.
>
>

Thalis, please do not top-post; especially when others have already
bottom-posted before you.

IMO writing and maintaining educational/training materials is a somewhat
different skill set and focus than writing and maintaining technical
documentation.  They have their own timelines and needs and the gatekeepers
for the documentation are not necessarily the best people to gatekeep
educational materials.

There are many different ideas out there - both content/format as well as
pricing models.  For better and worse the PostgreSQL "core" community does
not attempt to play favorites or provide recommendations or a "centralized"
database of what is out there.  The wiki and FAQ extend what is provided for
in the documentation somewhat but on the whole it is a very loose coalition.
Such decentralization, combined with very little spare capacity of
PostgreSQL skilled persons, makes getting started from scratch a difficult
proposition.

Aside from all of that the documentation is written in SGML thus making
contributing that much more difficult.  If you are interested in
"volunteering" then just do it.  Develop content and then work with the
community to determine how to best integrate it with the existing materials
out there or at worse see if someone will host it for you.

David J.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 16:24:08 -0300,
   Thalis Kalfigkopoulos <tkalfigo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Also IMHO another difficulty the manual poses is that the reader doesn't
>have a way to confirm his level of understanding after reading a
>chapter.

It isn't too hard to play with a toy database. I personally found (and still
find) the Postgres manual to be a great resource for learning SQL.

On 10/16/12 3:24 PM, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote:
> Now I'd understand the Pg manual writers being reluctant about
> shifting from manual to DB-book, but I'm guessing, the manual being as
> well written as it is, that many of us are already using it as a
> learning book anyway.

The official manual is a reference manual that also includes some good
tutorial material.  Just trying to cover that depth well, it's already
so large as to be cumbersome--both from the perspective of new readers
and the people maintaining it.

Expecting to expand its scope even further toward the tutorial and
example side is not something I'd expect to gain much traction.  Every
example that appears in the manual is yet another place for the
documentation to break when code changes are made.  And it's the same
group of people maintaining both the documentation and the code.  Anyone
who tries to rev up adding even more docs is going to pull focus off new
code.  Would you like the core features to expand or to get a new type
of documentation?  The way things are organized right now, you can't get
both.

I would say that it's easier to write 400 pages of material outside of
the manual and distribute them to the world than to add 40 pages to the
official manual.  And I say that as someone who tried wandering down
both paths to see which was more productive.

--
Greg Smith   2ndQuadrant US    greg@2ndQuadrant.com   Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.com

I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned
an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's
content every day.

Best training material ever in my opinion.

--
Vincent Veyron
http://marica.fr/
Logiciel de gestion des assurances sinistres et des dossiers contentieux pour le service juridique

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Vincent Veyron <vv.lists@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned
> an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's
> content every day.
>
> Best training material ever in my opinion.

A pay-for magazine you can probably claim on your taxes as a necessary
expense. Is it possible somehow to claim that reading this list is
vital to your work, and therefore the 5 hours a week you spend
answering other threads (in order to repay the community) is a
legitimate work expense? :)

ChrisA

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Vincent Veyron <vv.lists@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>>
>> I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned
>> an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's
>> content every day.
>>
>> Best training material ever in my opinion.
>
> A pay-for magazine you can probably claim on your taxes as a necessary
> expense. Is it possible somehow to claim that reading this list is
> vital to your work, and therefore the 5 hours a week you spend
> answering other threads (in order to repay the community) is a
> legitimate work expense? :)

I've been on more than one job interview where the guy interviewing me
is someone who's question I've answered in the past here.

Le jeudi 18 octobre 2012 à 01:42 +1100, Chris Angelico a écrit :
>  Is it possible somehow to claim that reading this list is
> vital to your work, and therefore the 5 hours a week you spend
> answering other threads (in order to repay the community) is a
> legitimate work expense? :)
>


The ratio of benefits to costs in my case is close to infinity : I have
no formal training in computer programming, so I learned practically
everything on lists (plus a few books and a lot of documentation), and
have been making a leaving out of it for fifteen years.

I consider it essential to read them, to see what are real life
situations and the usually numerous possible answers, many of which one
person would not know about; it's like training for a professional
athlete, and one has to practice every day.

Also, on numerous occasions, some thread I followed out of interest lead
me to a very suitable solution for a problem at hand within the next few
days of work : many hours were saved that way.

I could go on, but in short vital is the right word I'd say.

(I'll just mention that I am in constant awe at the level of expertise
dispensed in this particular list)

--
Vincent Veyron
http://marica.fr/
Logiciel de gestion des assurances sinistres et des dossiers contentieux pour le service juridique

On 2012-10-17, Vincent Veyron <vv.lists@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned
> an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's
> content every day.
>
> Best training material ever in my opinion.

Yeah, if you want to learn PostgreSQL this list, the "sql" list, and
the "novice" list will provide both answers and example problems.

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural