Обсуждение: Postgres in government
Hello, Sorry for the cross post. I am working on a requirements and recommendation document for a division of the State of Hawaii Attorney General's office. We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source. We all know that Postgres is good and given the requirements and scale of this project (fairly small) it is a very good fit. I have looked at the case studies listed on postgresql.org and searched the mailing list archives. I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities. Overall, not a lot of examples out there, which seems strange because I know it is being used by various government agencies. Its the communities of users and developers that make open source software so powerful, I decided that the best course of action was to leverage the community. So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and can share. Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the list. And since I'm leaving on vacation in 3 days, please CC my coworkers at postgres-info@eworldes.com Thanks in advance Mark
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 21:24, Mark Steckel wrote: > Hello, > > Sorry for the cross post. > > I am working on a requirements and recommendation document for a division > of the State of Hawaii Attorney General's office. We are proposing that > Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are > being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source. > > We all know that Postgres is good and given the requirements and scale of > this project (fairly small) it is a very good fit. I have looked at the > case studies listed on postgresql.org and searched the mailing list > archives. I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of > Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities. Overall, > not a lot of examples out there, which seems strange because I know it is > being used by various government agencies. > > Its the communities of users and developers that make open source software > so powerful, I decided that the best course of action was to leverage the > community. > > So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a > government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly > appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project > name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of > users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and > can share. There are probably thousands of 24/7 operations running postgresql. None of them have to tell anyone, so it's no surprise you haven't heard about them. One of the more interesting projects running on postgresql is the .org domain. Do a search for postgresql and afilias and .org or whatnot.
Scott Marlowe wrote: >On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 21:24, Mark Steckel wrote: > > >>...We are proposing that >>Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are >>being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source. >> >> So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products!
Mark Steckel wrote: > I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of > Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities. I find googling for vendors who are known to use PostgreSQL and searching for people's resumes is a good way to find descriptions of Government projects along with contacts for references. Here's a couple that look interesting. US Navy, Northrop Grumman Use PostgreSQL in the Navy Enterprise Portal and the Fleet Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography Center(FNMOC) Portal: http://kennethbowen.com/kbresume.html " Develop J2EE application to store user profiles for the Navy Enterprise Portal and the Fleet Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography Center(FNMOC) Portal using JBoss application server and PostgreSQL database. " DOD, USGS, USDA, Army Corp of Engineers, Navy, through a company called Sanz: http://postgis.refractions.net/pipermail/postgis-users/2005-March/007399.html Sanz manages "tens of terrabyte datasets of raster and vector data for the DOD, USGS, USDA, Army Corp of Engineers, Navy, etc." using postgresql and postgis
>>> ...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database. >>> Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional information because >>> Postgres is open source. >>> > So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would > think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products! It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can. If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? No one... which means the guy who approved it is the scape goat -- which is why he wants proof that others have found it worthy... Silly, but that's probably what's happening. -philip
On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 11:35, Philip Hallstrom wrote: > >>> ...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database. > >>> Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional information because > >>> Postgres is open source. > >>> > > So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would > > think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products! > > It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes > bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can. Ummm. No, they can't. But they can BLAME microsoft to their bosses. Microsoft's EULA, like most for commercial software, makes it clear that all you'll ever get out of them is your money back. And even that is a stretch. Read up on their "indemnity". It's basically a money back guarantee, and nothing more. > If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? The same people they would sue if MSSQL went south... > No one... Correct. > which means > the guy who approved it is the scape goat Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats, rather than proven results. > -- which is why he wants proof > that others have found it worthy... When what he should want is proof that it will work for HIS situation, since other's use may or may not reflect his. > Silly, but that's probably what's happening. Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor understanding of the scientific method get involved.
pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org wrote on 05/19/2005 11:35:07 AM: > >>> ...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database. > >>> Not too surprisingly we are being asked for additional > information because > >>> Postgres is open source. > >>> > > So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would > > think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products! > > It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes > bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can. > > If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? No one... which means > the guy who approved it is the scape goat -- which is why he wants proof > that others have found it worthy... > > Silly, but that's probably what's happening. Exactly that has happened to me. Indemnification is the term. I was also told that before using any opensource project I had to locally configuration control the product and perform a complete review of the source. I don't have to do that with Oracle because they've got lawyers, and we've got lawyers, and they know each other's phone numbers. Anybody have a phone number for PostgreSQL's lawyer? Don't flame me, please, I'm really kidding about the lawyer thing, but the rest is true. Rick > > -philip > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match
* Mark Steckel (mjs@eworldes.com) wrote: > So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a > government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly > appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project > name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of > users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and > can share. > > Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the list. And since I'm leaving on > vacation in 3 days, please CC my coworkers at postgres-info@eworldes.com Sorry about the ugly links, but... GSA Networx Acquisition: http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/channelView.do?pageTypeId=8199&channelId=-16201 GSA Networx Hosting Center: http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?programId=11454&channelId=-16201&ooid=16100&contentId=18739&pageTypeId=8199&contentType=GSA_BASIC&programPage=%2Fep%2Fprogram%2FgsaBasic.jsp&P=TOS3 GSA Networx Hosting Center User Instructions: http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_BASIC/NHC%20User%20Instructions%20v1.4_R2-wT3-j_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf Check out the bottom of page 2. :) Enjoy... :) Stephen
Вложения
The NOAA National Data Buoy Center is a government customer (there are many commercial customers) for our wXstation(R) product, which uses PostgreSQL as its database. The number of government customers may increase dramatically in the near future. -- P. J. "Josh" Rovero Sonalysts, Inc. Email: rovero@sonalysts.com www.sonalysts.com 215 Parkway North Work: (860)326-3671 or 442-4355 Waterford CT 06385 ***********************************************************************
> Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats, > rather than proven results. No, it could be that the OP's organization is looking for some proof of postgresql's results. A lot of people are familiar with the criteria for evaluating a company or commercial product. Open source products have a different set of criteria that are sometimes a bit harder to pin down. An advantage of a commercial product is that you can ask the vendor for references from people doing similar work to what you are doing. As we can see here, that's a bit more difficult for open source projects. It's frustrating, but just one of the hurdles you have to face when advocating open source software. My first experience with this was in 1991, when I introduced Tcl and Perl into NEC. It did not happen until Larry Wall's book came out and I could answer the question "why are these guys doing this? how are they going to make money to continue to do this?" with "hey they're giving away the software and making a fortune on the books!" > Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor > understanding of the scientific method get involved. As opposed to people with science degrees but poor understanding of business methods? :-) Cheers, Mark -- Mark Harrison Pixar Animation Studios
On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 15:10, Mark Harrison wrote: > > Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats, > > rather than proven results. > > No, it could be that the OP's organization is looking for some proof > of postgresql's results. That's a bit out of context. The message I was responding to was the one talking about having someone to sue, which is pure fiction, as all commercial software licenses make it pretty clear that the most you're gonna get is your money back. Please leave a little more context next time, as it looked from your response that my response was to the OP, which it most certainly was not. > > Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor > > understanding of the scientific method get involved. > > As opposed to people with science degrees but poor understanding > of business methods? :-) I'd say either one is a recipe for disaster, eh? :)
Scott Marlowe wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 15:10, Mark Harrison wrote: > >>>Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats, >>>rather than proven results. >> >>No, it could be that the OP's organization is looking for some proof >>of postgresql's results. > > > That's a bit out of context. The message I was responding to was the > one talking about having someone to sue, which is pure fiction, as all > commercial software licenses make it pretty clear that the most you're > gonna get is your money back. > > Please leave a little more context next time, as it looked from your > response that my response was to the OP, which it most certainly was > not. Sorry, did not mean to do that... Sincere apologies for the mistake!! >>>Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor >>>understanding of the scientific method get involved. >> >>As opposed to people with science degrees but poor understanding >>of business methods? :-) > > > I'd say either one is a recipe for disaster, eh? :) :)