Обсуждение: Re: [pgsql-www] One click installer a bit bare?
[BCC: pgsql-www, To: pgadmin-hackers] On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >>> OK, if we don't want to put that there, why not add it as a menu item >>> to pgadmin? >>> >>> That way we'll catch people even after they've run installer. >> >> We don't even have the pgAdmin mailing lists on the pgAdmin menus >> (they're in the Helpfile). I'm not sure I can recall any software that >> has such links on it's menus, at least not professionally produced >> products. > > ...investigates... > > pgAdmin has links to the Slony, EDB and EMC websites but nothing to > the pgadmin or postgresql websites. No, it has links to the PostgreSQL, pgAdmin, Slony, PPAS and GPDB online help, which can be either local, or remote. It will try to find local docs, otherwise it'll default back to the websites. Some installers may also pre-configure it to use the local helpfiles they install. Note also that those menu options are just quick links to the help indexes, as you might find on any app. There are also deep links within the product; for example, edit a table on a PostgreSQL database and click the Help button on the dialogue, and you'll be taken to the appropriate doc page in the PG docs wherever pgAdmin thinks they are. > What objection is there to giving users an option to sign up to the > Announce list? Is there a problem with the Announce list?? pgAdmin III has supported multiple distributions of PostgreSQL for almost as long as I can remember (certainly much longer ago than when either you or I started at EDB), not just the community version. One argument against adding such a link is that we should then also add similar ones to the EDB and EMC/Greenplum sites. I also stand by my previous argument, that this is not the sort of thing we should be cluttering the UI's menus with. The more appropriate place for such links is the docs (and I certainly have no objection to improvements there). -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
(Putting this back on PostgreSQL Advocacy, which is where the thread was started) On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> What objection is there to giving users an option to sign up to the >> Announce list? Is there a problem with the Announce list?? > > pgAdmin III has supported multiple distributions of PostgreSQL for > almost as long as I can remember (certainly much longer ago than when > either you or I started at EDB), not just the community version. One > argument against adding such a link is that we should then also add > similar ones to the EDB and EMC/Greenplum sites. > > I also stand by my previous argument, that this is not the sort of > thing we should be cluttering the UI's menus with. The more > appropriate place for such links is the docs (and I certainly have no > objection to improvements there). Why would this "clutter" the menu? It is 1 item, alongside links that already exist to the websites mentioned. If we were worried about such clutter, we could enable/disable depending upon the system type you connect to - so if you connect to Greenplum it offers you Greenplum help etc, but if you don't it skips that menu option. I have zero interest in putting options on the menus of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > (Putting this back on PostgreSQL Advocacy, which is where the thread > was started) Err, no it wasn't. If you wish to discuss pgAdmin's design, pgadmin-hackers is the place to do it, not pgsql-www which is where the thread started, or pgsql-advocacy where you've now moved it. > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >>> What objection is there to giving users an option to sign up to the >>> Announce list? Is there a problem with the Announce list?? >> >> pgAdmin III has supported multiple distributions of PostgreSQL for >> almost as long as I can remember (certainly much longer ago than when >> either you or I started at EDB), not just the community version. One >> argument against adding such a link is that we should then also add >> similar ones to the EDB and EMC/Greenplum sites. >> >> I also stand by my previous argument, that this is not the sort of >> thing we should be cluttering the UI's menus with. The more >> appropriate place for such links is the docs (and I certainly have no >> objection to improvements there). > > Why would this "clutter" the menu? It is 1 item, alongside links that > already exist to the websites mentioned. Per my comment above, arguably it should be three. > If we were worried about such clutter, we could enable/disable > depending upon the system type you connect to - so if you connect to > Greenplum it offers you Greenplum help etc, but if you don't it skips > that menu option. pgAdmin can connect to multiple database servers at once. Further to that, one of the basic design rule of GUI applications is that you don't show and hide menu options on the main menus because it confuses users (that is only done on the "real" context sensitive menus, which are accessible elsewhere, in predictable places). > I have zero interest in putting options on the menus > of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people > that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source > PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would > reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. Just because you have zero interest in it, it doesn't mean that the pgAdmin developers or other users have zero interest in it. The project has always taken pride in supporting forks of Postgres. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > We seem to be getting off track here. My goal of the thread was simple: > > To get the commmunity one click installer (regardless of where it is hosted) > to direct back to .Org for things like support, mailing lists and joing a > community. Not EDB (which I am sure everyone can understand). Which is happening. We're working on allowing the user to jump back to the PG website at the end of the installation, and the download page has been redesigned such that it will include multiple links to postgresql.org (laid out in a design intended to guide the user in their next steps), and will not have any registration form on it. The layout is being put together at the moment. > Everything else is frankly irrelevant, pgAdmin can do whatever it wants, it > is its own project +1 -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> If we were worried about such clutter, we could enable/disable >> depending upon the system type you connect to - so if you connect to >> Greenplum it offers you Greenplum help etc, but if you don't it skips >> that menu option. > > pgAdmin can connect to multiple database servers at once. Further to > that, one of the basic design rule of GUI applications is that you > don't show and hide menu options on the main menus because it confuses > users (that is only done on the "real" context sensitive menus, which > are accessible elsewhere, in predictable places). pgAdmin's behaviour is already context sensitive. This would be the same. >> I have zero interest in putting options on the menus >> of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people >> that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source >> PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would >> reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. > > Just because you have zero interest in it, it doesn't mean that the > pgAdmin developers or other users have zero interest in it. The > project has always taken pride in supporting forks of Postgres. You misunderstand. I have no interest in showing an EDB or Greenplum user an option to reach the PostgreSQL web site. What private companies do is their own affair, not mine. My interest is in having a PostgreSQL user have access to the PostgreSQL website and announce list. That can be put on the PostgreSQL installer or pgadmin (when included with the PostgreSQL distribution at least). I don't mind which, but it needs to be in at least one of those places. pgAdmin was only suggested because you said putting it on the installer was somehow a problem. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
On 10/06/2011 09:37 AM, Dave Page wrote: >> I have zero interest in putting options on the menus >> of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people >> that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source >> PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would >> reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. > > Just because you have zero interest in it, it doesn't mean that the > pgAdmin developers or other users have zero interest in it. The > project has always taken pride in supporting forks of Postgres. > We seem to be getting off track here. My goal of the thread was simple: To get the commmunity one click installer (regardless of where it is hosted) to direct back to .Org for things like support, mailing lists and joing a community. Not EDB (which I am sure everyone can understand). Everything else is frankly irrelevant, pgAdmin can do whatever it wants, it is its own project and I don't see a problem with it supporting every database on the planet if that is where they want to put there resources. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development The PostgreSQL Conference - http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ @cmdpromptinc - @postgresconf - 509-416-6579
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >>> If we were worried about such clutter, we could enable/disable >>> depending upon the system type you connect to - so if you connect to >>> Greenplum it offers you Greenplum help etc, but if you don't it skips >>> that menu option. >> >> pgAdmin can connect to multiple database servers at once. Further to >> that, one of the basic design rule of GUI applications is that you >> don't show and hide menu options on the main menus because it confuses >> users (that is only done on the "real" context sensitive menus, which >> are accessible elsewhere, in predictable places). > > pgAdmin's behaviour is already context sensitive. This would be the same. Yes, but it doesn't hide out of context options on the main menus, it makes them inactive. That's intentional, as we don't want to the user to be confused by menus that change shape, or have variable numbers of options shown. >>> I have zero interest in putting options on the menus >>> of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people >>> that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source >>> PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would >>> reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. >> >> Just because you have zero interest in it, it doesn't mean that the >> pgAdmin developers or other users have zero interest in it. The >> project has always taken pride in supporting forks of Postgres. > > You misunderstand. I have no interest in showing an EDB or Greenplum > user an option to reach the PostgreSQL web site. What private > companies do is their own affair, not mine. > > My interest is in having a PostgreSQL user have access to the > PostgreSQL website and announce list. That can be put on the > PostgreSQL installer or pgadmin (when included with the PostgreSQL > distribution at least). I don't mind which, but it needs to be in at > least one of those places. Aside from my other objections, PR (in that sense at least) is really not the job of pgAdmin. It is there to help you manage your databases, not to get you subscribed to an announcement mailing list. I'm sure if you tried to get a similar feature added to psql you would meet with similar resistance to the idea. > pgAdmin was only suggested because you said putting it on the > installer was somehow a problem. Putting 2 such options on the installer is a potentially problem because it clutters the UI which we know causes users to ignore things or misread them. Keeping installers simple and to the point is a key part of the user experience - that was one of the reasons the old installers we such a nightmare for people to use; there was approaching 100 config options to choose from when you ran them! Putting one option there will, I am certain, be fine from a "not destroying the UX perspective" - and we're looking at how best to do that at the moment. Additionally, the installer *is* an appropriate place for either of the links suggested - visiting the products website, or subscribing to the products announce mailing list is a perfectly reasonable thing to do post-installation. I'm happy to try to put two links on the final page and see how it looks, but I don't think it'll work well - and assuming it doesn't, we'll need to figure out whether to link to the -announce subscription page, or the homepage. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > I'm happy to try to put two links on the final page and see how it > looks, but I don't think it'll work well - and assuming it doesn't, > we'll need to figure out whether to link to the -announce subscription > page, or the homepage. If there was a "Sign up to News" anywhere near the home page, I'd say lets go to home page. There isn't, so we should get people signed up to Announce list, priority #1. If we don't then people won't know to upgrade, fix security vulnerabilities etc.. They won't find out about conferences and all the other good things. > Aside from my other objections, PR (in that sense at least) is really > not the job of pgAdmin. It is there to help you manage your databases, When installed as part of the PostgreSQL installer - then pgadmin *is* PostgreSQL as far as users are concerned. So pgadmin is fair game to include options of interest to the PostgreSQL community - but only when packaged as part of the PostgreSQL installer. As I said, don't mind where we put it, as long as we put it somewhere on installer/pgadmin. I'm not sure what you mean by PR in this context, what has that got to do with this? -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services