Обсуждение: Patch to roadmap
To take into account developer wiki as a central portal for the roadmap (as it links to all things developer). Index: roadmap.html =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/pgweb/portal/template/en/developer/roadmap.html,v retrieving revision 1.8 diff -c -r1.8 roadmap.html *** roadmap.html 19 Oct 2006 01:32:36 -0000 1.8 --- roadmap.html 27 Feb 2007 00:52:12 -0000 *************** *** 7,19 **** <p>PostgreSQL is a non-commercial, all volunteer, free software project, and as such there is no formal list of feature requirements required for development. We really do follow the mantra of letting developers scratch their own itches.</p> ! <p>That said, there is an informal list of items that have been agreed upon by the PostgreSQL developers as things that need to ! worked upon, known as the <a href="/docs/faqs.TODO.html">TODO</a> list. Items on the list can be marked as ! completed in development, "claimed" by a developer and being activly worked on, or unmarked meaning that the item is likely not ! being activly worked on. </p> - <p>There are also two lists for "unapplied patches" that have been submitted for inclusion into PostgreSQL, - one for the <a href="http://momjian.postgresql.org/cgi-bin/pgpatches">patches saved for the current release</a> and one for - <a href="http://momjian.postgresql.org/cgi-bin/pgpatches_hold">patches saved for the next release</a>. Once a patch has been submitted - and saved in the queue, it is a good bet that the particular feature will make it into the appropriate release.</p> --- 7,14 ---- <p>PostgreSQL is a non-commercial, all volunteer, free software project, and as such there is no formal list of feature requirements required for development. We really do follow the mantra of letting developers scratch their own itches.</p> ! <p>That said, there is a <a href="http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Main_Page">Developer Wiki</a> available that contains information ! on upcoming developments, features, "claimed" items, TODO lists, and pending patches.</p> ! -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
> [ replace link to TODO list with link to wiki ]
This is *exactly* the sort of thing I was afraid would happen, ie,
people pushing to ignore the (somewhat) community-reviewed TODO list in
favor of believing the whatever-someone-thought-five-minutes-ago wiki.
I don't mind mentioning the existence of the wiki but please do not give
it pride of place over the TODO list.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
>> [ replace link to TODO list with link to wiki ]
>
> This is *exactly* the sort of thing I was afraid would happen, ie,
> people pushing to ignore the (somewhat) community-reviewed TODO list in
> favor of believing the whatever-someone-thought-five-minutes-ago wiki.
>
> I don't mind mentioning the existence of the wiki but please do not give
> it pride of place over the TODO list.
It isn't... the wiki (which is at developer.postgresql.org) contains ALL
information concerning the TODO list. I can certainly add the link back
in, but having a link to the TODO and a link to the WIKI is redundant
because the WIKI has a link to the TODO.
Joshua D. Drake
>
> regards, tom lane
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> I don't mind mentioning the existence of the wiki but please do not give
>> it pride of place over the TODO list.
> It isn't... the wiki (which is at developer.postgresql.org) contains ALL
> information concerning the TODO list. I can certainly add the link back
> in, but having a link to the TODO and a link to the WIKI is redundant
> because the WIKI has a link to the TODO.
You've completely misunderstood my point. If we do it that way then the
TODO list exists only upon sufferance of the wiki, which is not the true
power structure around here, even if you would wish it otherwise.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
>> Tom Lane wrote:
>>> I don't mind mentioning the existence of the wiki but please do not give
>>> it pride of place over the TODO list.
>
>> It isn't... the wiki (which is at developer.postgresql.org) contains ALL
>> information concerning the TODO list. I can certainly add the link back
>> in, but having a link to the TODO and a link to the WIKI is redundant
>> because the WIKI has a link to the TODO.
>
> You've completely misunderstood my point. If we do it that way then the
> TODO list exists only upon sufferance of the wiki, which is not the true
> power structure around here, even if you would wish it otherwise.
I do not wish anything but for the information to be central and easy to
find. Let's stay on task shall we. I find it much more productive. I
submitted a patch. You don't like the patch. Fine. Let's come up with a
better one.
If I click on Developers from the main navigation, I am presented with
several links, one of which is the TODO list.
If I click on Roadmap which happens to be under developers, my patch
removes the link to the TODO to the page that is the WIKI, which
contains more information than your the current roadmap page.
So, I can put the link back, which I already suggested.
I could, also remove roadmap which in general seems to be a redundant
category and thus allow for less links in general, as the roadmap is
basically a regurgitation of the /developer page anyway.
I am open to suggestions.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> regards, tom lane
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:24:55PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Tom Lane wrote: > > "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes: > >> Tom Lane wrote: > >>> I don't mind mentioning the existence of the wiki but please do not give > >>> it pride of place over the TODO list. > > > >> It isn't... the wiki (which is at developer.postgresql.org) contains ALL > >> information concerning the TODO list. I can certainly add the link back > >> in, but having a link to the TODO and a link to the WIKI is redundant > >> because the WIKI has a link to the TODO. > > > > You've completely misunderstood my point. If we do it that way then the > > TODO list exists only upon sufferance of the wiki, which is not the true > > power structure around here, even if you would wish it otherwise. > > I do not wish anything but for the information to be central and easy to > find. Let's stay on task shall we. I find it much more productive. I > submitted a patch. You don't like the patch. Fine. Let's come up with a > better one. FWIW, I'm with Tom on this - it's fine to present a link to the wiki (it really should be there, it's something we've missed), but the wiki is *not* a replacement for the TODO list. At least not yet. (it might be at some time in the future, but that's a completely different discussion) The same goes for the link on the frontpage (per your other patch), I think it's better if it goes into the developer section, or possibly directly to the TODO list, and not to the Wiki. > If I click on Roadmap which happens to be under developers, my patch > removes the link to the TODO to the page that is the WIKI, which > contains more information than your the current roadmap page. > > So, I can put the link back, which I already suggested. I think that's the best - link to both, with a description of what is what. > I could, also remove roadmap which in general seems to be a redundant > category and thus allow for less links in general, as the roadmap is > basically a regurgitation of the /developer page anyway. A general change there might not be a bad idea. Though I like having the Roadmap on it's own page - perhaps we should get rid of all those links on the first page instead? The whole "What will you find here" section is much a repeat of what's in the menu on the left anyway, which doesn't make sense. What might make more sense is to have a paragraph about "the postgresql development model", in how we deal with patches and such in our project. (I'm volounteering your time to write this, of course :-P) //Magnus
>>> You've completely misunderstood my point. If we do it that way then the
>>> TODO list exists only upon sufferance of the wiki, which is not the true
>>> power structure around here, even if you would wish it otherwise.
>> I do not wish anything but for the information to be central and easy to
>> find. Let's stay on task shall we. I find it much more productive. I
>> submitted a patch. You don't like the patch. Fine. Let's come up with a
>> better one.
>
> FWIW, I'm with Tom on this - it's fine to present a link to the wiki (it
> really should be there, it's something we've missed), but the wiki is
> *not* a replacement for the TODO list. At least not yet. (it might be at
> some time in the future, but that's a completely different discussion)
Well I am not against Tom on this. There seems to be this attachment to
the idea that I removed a link to the TODO list. I already said I would
put it back. The link *is* redundant, but that's fine.
>
> The same goes for the link on the frontpage (per your other patch), I
> think it's better if it goes into the developer section, or possibly
> directly to the TODO list, and not to the Wiki.
I disagree strongly with this one. The point of the change to the front
page is to get everyone as much information as they need with one entry
point.
It isn't about replacing the TODO list, it in fact has nothing to do
with the TODO list.
If I go to the TODO list, how do I know who is working on a feature?
If I go to the TODO list, how do I know the status of a feature?
I don't. The WIKI gives us that and gives us the TODO list to boot.
>> If I click on Roadmap which happens to be under developers, my patch
>> removes the link to the TODO to the page that is the WIKI, which
>> contains more information than your the current roadmap page.
>>
>> So, I can put the link back, which I already suggested.
>
> I think that's the best - link to both, with a description of what is
> what.
Sure.
>
>> I could, also remove roadmap which in general seems to be a redundant
>> category and thus allow for less links in general, as the roadmap is
>> basically a regurgitation of the /developer page anyway.
>
> A general change there might not be a bad idea. Though I like having the
> Roadmap on it's own page - perhaps we should get rid of all those links
> on the first page instead?
The problem with roadmap on its own page is that it exists to give a
warm and fuzzy about possibly having a roadmap which we don't. At all.
It is a bogus link, even with the original page and it only contains
redundant information.
>
> What might make more sense is to have a paragraph about "the postgresql
> development model", in how we deal with patches and such in our project.
> (I'm volounteering your time to write this, of course :-P)
I would agree with this, including information on a roadmap etc..
Joshua D. Drake
>
> //Magnus
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>>> You've completely misunderstood my point. If we do it that way then the >>>> TODO list exists only upon sufferance of the wiki, which is not the true >>>> power structure around here, even if you would wish it otherwise. >>> I do not wish anything but for the information to be central and easy to >>> find. Let's stay on task shall we. I find it much more productive. I >>> submitted a patch. You don't like the patch. Fine. Let's come up with a >>> better one. >> FWIW, I'm with Tom on this - it's fine to present a link to the wiki (it >> really should be there, it's something we've missed), but the wiki is >> *not* a replacement for the TODO list. At least not yet. (it might be at >> some time in the future, but that's a completely different discussion) > > Well I am not against Tom on this. There seems to be this attachment to > the idea that I removed a link to the TODO list. I already said I would > put it back. The link *is* redundant, but that's fine. :-) Sorry, probably didn't read the thread careful enough. >> The same goes for the link on the frontpage (per your other patch), I >> think it's better if it goes into the developer section, or possibly >> directly to the TODO list, and not to the Wiki. > > I disagree strongly with this one. The point of the change to the front > page is to get everyone as much information as they need with one entry > point. > > It isn't about replacing the TODO list, it in fact has nothing to do > with the TODO list. > > If I go to the TODO list, how do I know who is working on a feature? > If I go to the TODO list, how do I know the status of a feature? > > I don't. The WIKI gives us that and gives us the TODO list to boot. What you are suggesting is getting rid of the TODO list and replacing it with the Wiki. If we want to do that, then it's a different question (I'm not going to go into the reasons for or against doing it here, just that it's a different consideration) Until then, AFAIK the TODO list is the official word, and that's the only thing we should be linking to from our frontpage. We should not be linking to something that's labeled as Unofficial from the entry page of our website. >>> I could, also remove roadmap which in general seems to be a redundant >>> category and thus allow for less links in general, as the roadmap is >>> basically a regurgitation of the /developer page anyway. >> A general change there might not be a bad idea. Though I like having the >> Roadmap on it's own page - perhaps we should get rid of all those links >> on the first page instead? > > The problem with roadmap on its own page is that it exists to give a > warm and fuzzy about possibly having a roadmap which we don't. At all. > It is a bogus link, even with the original page and it only contains > redundant information. That's a good point, but people requested a roadmap and that's the best we could come up with - IIRC. But I'm definitely open for other changes there, but it has to be made to the whole section and not just micro-fixes, I think. >> What might make more sense is to have a paragraph about "the postgresql >> development model", in how we deal with patches and such in our project. >> (I'm volounteering your time to write this, of course :-P) > > I would agree with this, including information on a roadmap etc.. Great, especially considering that it was your time that was volunteered to do it :-) //Magnus
>>> The same goes for the link on the frontpage (per your other patch), I
>>> think it's better if it goes into the developer section, or possibly
>>> directly to the TODO list, and not to the Wiki.
>> I disagree strongly with this one. The point of the change to the front
>> page is to get everyone as much information as they need with one entry
>> point.
>>
>> It isn't about replacing the TODO list, it in fact has nothing to do
>> with the TODO list.
>>
>> If I go to the TODO list, how do I know who is working on a feature?
>> If I go to the TODO list, how do I know the status of a feature?
>>
>> I don't. The WIKI gives us that and gives us the TODO list to boot.
>
> What you are suggesting is getting rid of the TODO list and replacing it
> with the Wiki.
I think this is where the disconnect is. I am *not* suggesting any such
thing. I am suggesting, that a single link on a single page which is not
the TODO list page, be changed to reflect a link that contains more
thorough information about our development which *includes* the TODO
list links.
This is purely an organizational thing, it has nothing to do with the
TODO list anymore than it does a link to archives.postgresql.org.
If we want to do that, then it's a different question
> (I'm not going to go into the reasons for or against doing it here, just
> that it's a different consideration)
>
> Until then, AFAIK the TODO list is the official word, and that's the
Even Tom has stated that the TODO is not the official word. The TODO is
a wish list, it is a ice cream on a hot day. It has not standing accept
that it is generated arbitrarily by a core member via discussion that
happens on the list. That core member, willingly puts things on the TODO
list that have never been approved, or had *official* word of acceptance.
That is not to say I am not against the TODO list, I am not, see above.
I am just saying that all arguments about official, non official, are moot.
> only thing we should be linking to from our frontpage. We should not be
> linking to something that's labeled as Unofficial from the entry page of
> our website.
*sigh* Why not? It is the best source of information on development of
PostgreSQL that currently exists.
No -- the mailing lists don't cut it. If I want to read about what is
going on with the XML todo... where do I do that?
Yep, the wiki.
Oh, but I also want to see the current list of pending patches.
Yep, the wiki has it too.
Oh, well I want to see what is coming in 8.3 in terms of syntatical changes.
Oh... the wiki, front page, right there.
Oh, what is this enumerated type thing?
Oh... the wiki has all the links I need to find out.
>> The problem with roadmap on its own page is that it exists to give a
>> warm and fuzzy about possibly having a roadmap which we don't. At all.
>> It is a bogus link, even with the original page and it only contains
>> redundant information.
>
> That's a good point, but people requested a roadmap and that's the best
> we could come up with - IIRC. But I'm definitely open for other changes
> there, but it has to be made to the whole section and not just
> micro-fixes, I think.
Everyone wants something, that doesn't mean they get it. Just look at
this discussion ;) Beyond that I would think a header of Roadmap that is
on the main page of /developer with a paragraph makes a ton more sense.
>>> What might make more sense is to have a paragraph about "the postgresql
>>> development model", in how we deal with patches and such in our project.
>>> (I'm volounteering your time to write this, of course :-P)
>> I would agree with this, including information on a roadmap etc..
>
> Great, especially considering that it was your time that was volunteered
> to do it :-)
Some day you must cross the pond to my side of the world. You owe me beer.
Joshua D. Drake
>
> //Magnus
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
>>> I don't. The WIKI gives us that and gives us the TODO list to boot. >> What you are suggesting is getting rid of the TODO list and replacing it >> with the Wiki. > > I think this is where the disconnect is. I am *not* suggesting any such > thing. I am suggesting, that a single link on a single page which is not > the TODO list page, be changed to reflect a link that contains more > thorough information about our development which *includes* the TODO > list links. I'm absolutely fine with linking to the wiki page from the developer section. Not just fine with it, we absolutely should do it. We should link to both. >> Until then, AFAIK the TODO list is the official word, and that's the > > Even Tom has stated that the TODO is not the official word. The TODO is > a wish list, it is a ice cream on a hot day. It has not standing accept > that it is generated arbitrarily by a core member via discussion that > happens on the list. That core member, willingly puts things on the TODO > list that have never been approved, or had *official* word of acceptance. > > That is not to say I am not against the TODO list, I am not, see above. > I am just saying that all arguments about official, non official, are moot. Well, the header of one of the pages say "unofficial" ;-) (leaving the rest for others to comment on as I believe I've already said what I think and just reiterating it won't help) >>>> What might make more sense is to have a paragraph about "the postgresql >>>> development model", in how we deal with patches and such in our project. >>>> (I'm volounteering your time to write this, of course :-P) >>> I would agree with this, including information on a roadmap etc.. >> Great, especially considering that it was your time that was volunteered >> to do it :-) > > Some day you must cross the pond to my side of the world. You owe me beer. Hey, you're the one who didn't come to Toronto :-P //Magnus