Обсуждение: [PATCH] Addition of some trivial auto vacuum logging

Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> writes:
>  The attached patch adds extra detail the the existing autovacuum log message that is emitted when the
log_autovacuum_min_durationthreshold is met, exposing the unremovable dead tuple count similar to what you get from
VACUUMVERBOSE.
 

> Sample log output (my addition in bold):

> LOG:  automatic vacuum of table "test.public.test": index scans: 0
>     pages: 0 removed, 5 remain
>     tuples: 0 removed, 1000 remain, 999 dead but not removable
>     system usage: CPU 0.00s/0.00u sec elapsed 0.00 sec

This proposal seems rather ill-designed.  In the first place, these
numbers are quite unrelated to vacuum duration, and in the second place,
most people who might need the info don't have that setting turned on
anyway.

I wonder whether it wouldn't be more helpful to have a pg_stat_all_tables
column that reports the number of unremovable tuples as of the last
vacuum.  I've been known to object to more per-table stats counters
in the past on the basis of space required, but perhaps this one would
be worth its keep.
        regards, tom lane

Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
> As this is my first patch to postgresql, I'm expecting I've done
< something wrong.  Please if you want me to fix something up, or
> just go away please say so ;)  I appreciate that this is a trivial
> patch, and perhaps doesn't add value except for my very specific
> use case* feel free to ignore it =)
Thanks for offering this to the community.  I see you've already
gotten feedback on the patch, with a suggestion for a different
approach.  Don't let that discourage you -- very few patches get in
without needing to be modified based on review and feedback.
If you haven't already done so, please review this page and its
links:
http://www.postgresql.org/developer/
Of particular interest is the Developer FAQ:
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Developer_FAQ
You should also be aware of the development cycle, which (when not
in feature freeze for beta testing) involves alternating periods of
focused development and code review (the latter called CommitFests):
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/CommitFest
We are now in the midst of a CF, so it would be great if you could
join in that as a reviewer.  Newly submitted patches should be
submitted to the "open" CF:
http://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/commitfest_view/open
You might want to consider what Tom said and submit a modified patch
for the next review cycle.
Welcome!
-Kevin

Thanks for the tips guys.

Just a question:  is the utility great enough to warrant me working further on this?  I have no real desire to
implementthis particular feature -- I simply saw an opportunity to cut my teeth on something easy.  I'd be happy to
findsomething on the TODO list instead if this feature isn't really worthwhile. 

Tom's suggestion looks like it's less trivial that I can do just yet, but I'll take a look and ask for help if I need
it.

Cheers!

--Royce


On 28/09/2011, at 4:42 AM, Kevin Grittner wrote:

> Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
>
>> As this is my first patch to postgresql, I'm expecting I've done
> < something wrong.  Please if you want me to fix something up, or
>> just go away please say so ;)  I appreciate that this is a trivial
>> patch, and perhaps doesn't add value except for my very specific
>> use case* feel free to ignore it =)
>
> Thanks for offering this to the community.  I see you've already
> gotten feedback on the patch, with a suggestion for a different
> approach.  Don't let that discourage you -- very few patches get in
> without needing to be modified based on review and feedback.
>
> If you haven't already done so, please review this page and its
> links:
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/developer/
>
> Of particular interest is the Developer FAQ:
>
> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Developer_FAQ
>
> You should also be aware of the development cycle, which (when not
> in feature freeze for beta testing) involves alternating periods of
> focused development and code review (the latter called CommitFests):
>
> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/CommitFest
>
> We are now in the midst of a CF, so it would be great if you could
> join in that as a reviewer.  Newly submitted patches should be
> submitted to the "open" CF:
>
> http://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/commitfest_view/open
>
> You might want to consider what Tom said and submit a modified patch
> for the next review cycle.
>
> Welcome!
>
> -Kevin

* Royce Ausburn (royce.ml@inomial.com) wrote:
> Just a question:  is the utility great enough to warrant me working further on this?  I have no real desire to
implementthis particular feature -- I simply saw an opportunity to cut my teeth on something easy.  I'd be happy to
findsomething on the TODO list instead if this feature isn't really worthwhile.
 

Seeing as how it's already got one committer willing to consider it (and
that one tends to go the other direction on new features..), I'd
definitely say it's worthwhile.  That doesn't mean it's guaranteed to
get in, but I'd put the probability above 75% given that feedback.
That's pretty good overall. :)

> Tom's suggestion looks like it's less trivial that I can do just yet, but I'll take a look and ask for help if I need
it.

Don't let the notion of fiddling with the catalogs (system tables)
discourage you..  It's really not all *that* bad.  What you will need to
figure out (and which I don't recall offhand..) is if you can just
update those catalogs directly from VACUUM or if you need to go through
the statistics collecter (which involves a bit of UDP communication, but
hopefully we've abstracted that out enough that you won't have to deal
with it directly really..).

Looking at an existing example case where VACUUM is doing something that
updates the stat tables (such as under the 'ANALYZE' option) will help
out a lot, I'm sure.
Thanks,
    Stephen

Excerpts from Royce Ausburn's message of mar sep 27 21:28:26 -0300 2011:
> Thanks for the tips guys. 
> 
> Just a question:  is the utility great enough to warrant me working further on this?  I have no real desire to
implementthis particular feature -- I simply saw an opportunity to cut my teeth on something easy.  I'd be happy to
findsomething on the TODO list instead if this feature isn't really worthwhile.
 

First patches are always going to be small things.  If you try to tackle
something too large, chances are you'll never finish, despair utterly
and throw yourself off a nearby bridge.  Surely it's better to set
realistic goals, start small and build slowly from there.

> Tom's suggestion looks like it's less trivial that I can do just yet, but I'll take a look and ask for help if I need
it.

It's not that difficult.  Just do a search on "git log
src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c" for patches that add a new column
somewhere.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> writes:
> Excerpts from Royce Ausburn's message of mar sep 27 21:28:26 -0300 2011:
>> Tom's suggestion looks like it's less trivial that I can do just yet, but I'll take a look and ask for help if I
needit.
 

> It's not that difficult.  Just do a search on "git log
> src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c" for patches that add a new column
> somewhere.

Yeah, I was just about to say the same thing.  Find a previous patch
that adds a feature similar to what you have in mind, and crib like mad.
We've added enough stats counters over time that you should have several
models to work from.
        regards, tom lane

On 28/09/2011, at 11:17 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> writes:
>> Excerpts from Royce Ausburn's message of mar sep 27 21:28:26 -0300 2011:
>>> Tom's suggestion looks like it's less trivial that I can do just yet, but I'll take a look and ask for help if I
needit. 
>
>> It's not that difficult.  Just do a search on "git log
>> src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c" for patches that add a new column
>> somewhere.
>
> Yeah, I was just about to say the same thing.  Find a previous patch
> that adds a feature similar to what you have in mind, and crib like mad.
> We've added enough stats counters over time that you should have several
> models to work from.


This patch does as Tom suggested, adding a column to the pg_stat_all_tables view which exposes the number of
unremovabletuples in the last vacuum.  This patch does not include my previous work to log this information as part of
auto_vacuum'slogging. 

User visible additions:
New column pg_stat_all_tables.n_unremovable_tup
New function bigint pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(oid)

A few notes / questions:

- I'm not sure if I'm supposed to update CATALOG_VERSION_NO in catalog.h.  In this patch I have.

- I'm not sure about how I should be selecting an OID for my new stats function.  I used the unused_oids script and
pickedone that seemed reasonable. 

- The VACUUM FULL implementation in cluster.c doesn't do any stats updating similar to vacuumlazy.c, so I haven't don't
anythingthere… (is this right?  A vacuum full may also encounter unremovable tuples, right?) 

- I'm not usually a C developer, so peeps reviewing please watch for noob mistakes.

Cheers,

--Royce



diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml
index a19e3f0..af7b235 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml
@@ -328,7 +328,8 @@ postgres: <replaceable>user</> <replaceable>database</> <replaceable>host</> <re
       belonging to the table), number of live rows fetched by index
       scans, numbers of row insertions, updates, and deletions,
       number of row updates that were HOT (i.e., no separate index update),
-      numbers of live and dead rows,
+      numbers of live and dead rows,
+      the number of dead tuples not removed in the last vacuum,
       the last time the table was non-<option>FULL</> vacuumed manually,
       the last time it was vacuumed by the autovacuum daemon,
       the last time it was analyzed manually,
@@ -764,6 +765,14 @@ postgres: <replaceable>user</> <replaceable>database</> <replaceable>host</> <re
        Number of dead rows in table
       </entry>
      </row>
+
+     <row>
+      <entry><literal><function>pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples</function>(<type>oid</type>)</literal></entry>
+      <entry><type>bigint</type></entry>
+      <entry>
+       Number of dead rows not removed in the table's last vacuum
+      </entry>
+     </row>

      <row>
       <entry><literal><function>pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched</function>(<type>oid</type>)</literal></entry>
diff --git a/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql b/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql
index 2253ca8..9c18dc7 100644
--- a/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql
+++ b/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql
@@ -353,6 +353,7 @@ CREATE VIEW pg_stat_all_tables AS
             pg_stat_get_tuples_hot_updated(C.oid) AS n_tup_hot_upd,
             pg_stat_get_live_tuples(C.oid) AS n_live_tup,
             pg_stat_get_dead_tuples(C.oid) AS n_dead_tup,
+            pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(C.oid) AS n_unremovable_tup,
             pg_stat_get_last_vacuum_time(C.oid) as last_vacuum,
             pg_stat_get_last_autovacuum_time(C.oid) as last_autovacuum,
             pg_stat_get_last_analyze_time(C.oid) as last_analyze,
diff --git a/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c b/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c
index cf8337b..140fe92 100644
--- a/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c
+++ b/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c
@@ -91,6 +91,7 @@ typedef struct LVRelStats
     double        scanned_tuples; /* counts only tuples on scanned pages */
     double        old_rel_tuples; /* previous value of pg_class.reltuples */
     double        new_rel_tuples; /* new estimated total # of tuples */
+    double        unremovable_tuples; /* count of dead tuples not yet removable */
     BlockNumber pages_removed;
     double        tuples_deleted;
     BlockNumber nonempty_pages; /* actually, last nonempty page + 1 */
@@ -245,7 +246,8 @@ lazy_vacuum_rel(Relation onerel, VacuumStmt *vacstmt,
     /* report results to the stats collector, too */
     pgstat_report_vacuum(RelationGetRelid(onerel),
                          onerel->rd_rel->relisshared,
-                         new_rel_tuples);
+                         new_rel_tuples,
+                         vacrelstats->unremovable_tuples);

     /* and log the action if appropriate */
     if (IsAutoVacuumWorkerProcess() && Log_autovacuum_min_duration >= 0)
@@ -829,6 +831,7 @@ lazy_scan_heap(Relation onerel, LVRelStats *vacrelstats,
     /* save stats for use later */
     vacrelstats->scanned_tuples = num_tuples;
     vacrelstats->tuples_deleted = tups_vacuumed;
+    vacrelstats->unremovable_tuples = nkeep;

     /* now we can compute the new value for pg_class.reltuples */
     vacrelstats->new_rel_tuples = vac_estimate_reltuples(onerel, false,
diff --git a/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c b/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c
index 9132db7..40d1107 100644
--- a/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c
+++ b/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c
@@ -1251,7 +1251,7 @@ pgstat_report_autovac(Oid dboid)
  * ---------
  */
 void
-pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared, PgStat_Counter tuples)
+pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared, PgStat_Counter tuples, PgStat_Counter m_unremovable_tuples)
 {
     PgStat_MsgVacuum msg;

@@ -1264,6 +1264,7 @@ pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared, PgStat_Counter tuples)
     msg.m_autovacuum = IsAutoVacuumWorkerProcess();
     msg.m_vacuumtime = GetCurrentTimestamp();
     msg.m_tuples = tuples;
+    msg.m_unremovable_tuples = m_unremovable_tuples;
     pgstat_send(&msg, sizeof(msg));
 }

@@ -4202,6 +4203,7 @@ pgstat_recv_vacuum(PgStat_MsgVacuum *msg, int len)
     tabentry = pgstat_get_tab_entry(dbentry, msg->m_tableoid, true);

     tabentry->n_live_tuples = msg->m_tuples;
+    tabentry->n_unremovable_tuples = msg->m_unremovable_tuples;
     /* Resetting dead_tuples to 0 is an approximation ... */
     tabentry->n_dead_tuples = 0;

diff --git a/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c b/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c
index 7792b33..fb60fc5 100644
--- a/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c
+++ b/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c
@@ -33,6 +33,7 @@ extern Datum pg_stat_get_tuples_deleted(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_tuples_hot_updated(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_live_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_dead_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
+extern Datum pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_blocks_hit(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_last_vacuum_time(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
@@ -256,6 +257,22 @@ pg_stat_get_dead_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS)
     PG_RETURN_INT64(result);
 }

+Datum
+pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS)
+{
+    Oid            relid = PG_GETARG_OID(0);
+    int64        result;
+    PgStat_StatTabEntry *tabentry;
+
+    if ((tabentry = pgstat_fetch_stat_tabentry(relid)) == NULL)
+        result = 0;
+    else
+        result = (int64) (tabentry->n_unremovable_tuples);
+
+    PG_RETURN_INT64(result);
+}
+
+

 Datum
 pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS)
diff --git a/src/include/catalog/catversion.h b/src/include/catalog/catversion.h
index f3c8bb4..950f1f2 100644
--- a/src/include/catalog/catversion.h
+++ b/src/include/catalog/catversion.h
@@ -53,6 +53,6 @@
  */

 /*                            yyyymmddN */
-#define CATALOG_VERSION_NO    201109071
+#define CATALOG_VERSION_NO    201110031

 #endif
diff --git a/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h b/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h
index 96f43fe..69f6415 100644
--- a/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h
+++ b/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h
@@ -2526,6 +2526,8 @@ DATA(insert OID = 2878 (  pg_stat_get_live_tuples    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t
 DESCR("statistics: number of live tuples");
 DATA(insert OID = 2879 (  pg_stat_get_dead_tuples    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_ _null_
_null__null_ pg_stat_get_dead_tuples _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
 DESCR("statistics: number of dead tuples");
+DATA(insert OID = 3122 (  pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_
_null__null_ _null_ pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
+DESCR("statistics: number of dead tuples not yet removable");
 DATA(insert OID = 1934 (  pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_ _null_
_null__null_ pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
 DESCR("statistics: number of blocks fetched");
 DATA(insert OID = 1935 (  pg_stat_get_blocks_hit        PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_ _null_
_null__null_ pg_stat_get_blocks_hit _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
diff --git a/src/include/pgstat.h b/src/include/pgstat.h
index 20c4d43..e1b082e 100644
--- a/src/include/pgstat.h
+++ b/src/include/pgstat.h
@@ -326,6 +326,7 @@ typedef struct PgStat_MsgVacuum
     bool        m_autovacuum;
     TimestampTz m_vacuumtime;
     PgStat_Counter m_tuples;
+    PgStat_Counter m_unremovable_tuples;
 } PgStat_MsgVacuum;


@@ -539,6 +540,7 @@ typedef struct PgStat_StatTabEntry

     PgStat_Counter n_live_tuples;
     PgStat_Counter n_dead_tuples;
+    PgStat_Counter n_unremovable_tuples;
     PgStat_Counter changes_since_analyze;

     PgStat_Counter blocks_fetched;
@@ -706,7 +708,7 @@ extern void pgstat_reset_single_counter(Oid objectid, PgStat_Single_Reset_Type t

 extern void pgstat_report_autovac(Oid dboid);
 extern void pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared,
-                     PgStat_Counter tuples);
+                     PgStat_Counter tuples, PgStat_Counter unremovable_tuples);
 extern void pgstat_report_analyze(Relation rel,
                       PgStat_Counter livetuples, PgStat_Counter deadtuples);

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
> - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to update CATALOG_VERSION_NO in catalog.h.  In this patch I have.

Generally that is left to the committer, as the correct value depends
on the value at the time of commit, not the time you submit the patch;
and including it in the patch tends to result in failing hunks, since
the value changes fairly frequently.

> - I'm not sure about how I should be selecting an OID for my new stats function.  I used the unused_oids script and
pickedone that seemed reasonable. 

That's the way to do it.

> - The VACUUM FULL implementation in cluster.c doesn't do any stats updating similar to vacuumlazy.c, so I haven't
don'tanything there… (is this right?  A vacuum full may also encounter unremovable tuples, right?) 

We've occasionally heard grumblings about making cluster do more stats
updating, but your patch should just go along with whatever's being
done now in similar cases.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 04/10/2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
>> - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to update CATALOG_VERSION_NO in catalog.h.  In this patch I have.
>
> Generally that is left to the committer, as the correct value depends
> on the value at the time of commit, not the time you submit the patch;
> and including it in the patch tends to result in failing hunks, since
> the value changes fairly frequently.

>> - The VACUUM FULL implementation in cluster.c doesn't do any stats updating similar to vacuumlazy.c, so I haven't
don'tanything there… (is this right?  A vacuum full may also encounter unremovable tuples, right?) 
>
> We've occasionally heard grumblings about making cluster do more stats
> updating, but your patch should just go along with whatever's being
> done now in similar cases.

I think I get this stats stuff now.  Unless someone here thinks it's too hard for a new postgres dev's 2nd patch, I
couldtake a stab.  I might take a look at it tonight to get a feel for how hard, and what stats we could collect.  I'll
starta new thread for discussion. 

Attached is v2 of my patch that doesn't update CATALOG_VERSION_NO.  I've also fixed the name of an argument to
pgstat_report_vacuumwhich I don't think was particularly good, and I've replace the word "tuple" with "row" in some
docsI added for consistency. 

I'm not sure what my next step should be.  I've added this patch to the open commit fest -- is that all for now until
thecommit fest begins review? 

--Royce



diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml
index a19e3f0..8692580 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/monitoring.sgml
@@ -328,7 +328,8 @@ postgres: <replaceable>user</> <replaceable>database</> <replaceable>host</> <re
       belonging to the table), number of live rows fetched by index
       scans, numbers of row insertions, updates, and deletions,
       number of row updates that were HOT (i.e., no separate index update),
-      numbers of live and dead rows,
+      numbers of live and dead rows,
+      the number of dead rows not removed in the last vacuum,
       the last time the table was non-<option>FULL</> vacuumed manually,
       the last time it was vacuumed by the autovacuum daemon,
       the last time it was analyzed manually,
@@ -764,6 +765,14 @@ postgres: <replaceable>user</> <replaceable>database</> <replaceable>host</> <re
        Number of dead rows in table
       </entry>
      </row>
+
+     <row>
+      <entry><literal><function>pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples</function>(<type>oid</type>)</literal></entry>
+      <entry><type>bigint</type></entry>
+      <entry>
+       Number of dead rows not removed in the table's last vacuum
+      </entry>
+     </row>

      <row>
       <entry><literal><function>pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched</function>(<type>oid</type>)</literal></entry>
diff --git a/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql b/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql
index 2253ca8..9c18dc7 100644
--- a/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql
+++ b/src/backend/catalog/system_views.sql
@@ -353,6 +353,7 @@ CREATE VIEW pg_stat_all_tables AS
             pg_stat_get_tuples_hot_updated(C.oid) AS n_tup_hot_upd,
             pg_stat_get_live_tuples(C.oid) AS n_live_tup,
             pg_stat_get_dead_tuples(C.oid) AS n_dead_tup,
+            pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(C.oid) AS n_unremovable_tup,
             pg_stat_get_last_vacuum_time(C.oid) as last_vacuum,
             pg_stat_get_last_autovacuum_time(C.oid) as last_autovacuum,
             pg_stat_get_last_analyze_time(C.oid) as last_analyze,
diff --git a/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c b/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c
index cf8337b..140fe92 100644
--- a/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c
+++ b/src/backend/commands/vacuumlazy.c
@@ -91,6 +91,7 @@ typedef struct LVRelStats
     double        scanned_tuples; /* counts only tuples on scanned pages */
     double        old_rel_tuples; /* previous value of pg_class.reltuples */
     double        new_rel_tuples; /* new estimated total # of tuples */
+    double        unremovable_tuples; /* count of dead tuples not yet removable */
     BlockNumber pages_removed;
     double        tuples_deleted;
     BlockNumber nonempty_pages; /* actually, last nonempty page + 1 */
@@ -245,7 +246,8 @@ lazy_vacuum_rel(Relation onerel, VacuumStmt *vacstmt,
     /* report results to the stats collector, too */
     pgstat_report_vacuum(RelationGetRelid(onerel),
                          onerel->rd_rel->relisshared,
-                         new_rel_tuples);
+                         new_rel_tuples,
+                         vacrelstats->unremovable_tuples);

     /* and log the action if appropriate */
     if (IsAutoVacuumWorkerProcess() && Log_autovacuum_min_duration >= 0)
@@ -829,6 +831,7 @@ lazy_scan_heap(Relation onerel, LVRelStats *vacrelstats,
     /* save stats for use later */
     vacrelstats->scanned_tuples = num_tuples;
     vacrelstats->tuples_deleted = tups_vacuumed;
+    vacrelstats->unremovable_tuples = nkeep;

     /* now we can compute the new value for pg_class.reltuples */
     vacrelstats->new_rel_tuples = vac_estimate_reltuples(onerel, false,
diff --git a/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c b/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c
index 9132db7..d974a96 100644
--- a/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c
+++ b/src/backend/postmaster/pgstat.c
@@ -1251,7 +1251,7 @@ pgstat_report_autovac(Oid dboid)
  * ---------
  */
 void
-pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared, PgStat_Counter tuples)
+pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared, PgStat_Counter tuples, PgStat_Counter unremovable_tuples)
 {
     PgStat_MsgVacuum msg;

@@ -1264,6 +1264,7 @@ pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared, PgStat_Counter tuples)
     msg.m_autovacuum = IsAutoVacuumWorkerProcess();
     msg.m_vacuumtime = GetCurrentTimestamp();
     msg.m_tuples = tuples;
+    msg.m_unremovable_tuples = unremovable_tuples;
     pgstat_send(&msg, sizeof(msg));
 }

@@ -4202,6 +4203,7 @@ pgstat_recv_vacuum(PgStat_MsgVacuum *msg, int len)
     tabentry = pgstat_get_tab_entry(dbentry, msg->m_tableoid, true);

     tabentry->n_live_tuples = msg->m_tuples;
+    tabentry->n_unremovable_tuples = msg->m_unremovable_tuples;
     /* Resetting dead_tuples to 0 is an approximation ... */
     tabentry->n_dead_tuples = 0;

diff --git a/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c b/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c
index 7792b33..fb60fc5 100644
--- a/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c
+++ b/src/backend/utils/adt/pgstatfuncs.c
@@ -33,6 +33,7 @@ extern Datum pg_stat_get_tuples_deleted(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_tuples_hot_updated(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_live_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_dead_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
+extern Datum pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_blocks_hit(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
 extern Datum pg_stat_get_last_vacuum_time(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS);
@@ -256,6 +257,22 @@ pg_stat_get_dead_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS)
     PG_RETURN_INT64(result);
 }

+Datum
+pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS)
+{
+    Oid            relid = PG_GETARG_OID(0);
+    int64        result;
+    PgStat_StatTabEntry *tabentry;
+
+    if ((tabentry = pgstat_fetch_stat_tabentry(relid)) == NULL)
+        result = 0;
+    else
+        result = (int64) (tabentry->n_unremovable_tuples);
+
+    PG_RETURN_INT64(result);
+}
+
+

 Datum
 pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched(PG_FUNCTION_ARGS)
diff --git a/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h b/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h
index 96f43fe..69f6415 100644
--- a/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h
+++ b/src/include/catalog/pg_proc.h
@@ -2526,6 +2526,8 @@ DATA(insert OID = 2878 (  pg_stat_get_live_tuples    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t
 DESCR("statistics: number of live tuples");
 DATA(insert OID = 2879 (  pg_stat_get_dead_tuples    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_ _null_
_null__null_ pg_stat_get_dead_tuples _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
 DESCR("statistics: number of dead tuples");
+DATA(insert OID = 3122 (  pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_
_null__null_ _null_ pg_stat_get_unremovable_tuples _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
+DESCR("statistics: number of dead tuples not yet removable");
 DATA(insert OID = 1934 (  pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched    PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_ _null_
_null__null_ pg_stat_get_blocks_fetched _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
 DESCR("statistics: number of blocks fetched");
 DATA(insert OID = 1935 (  pg_stat_get_blocks_hit        PGNSP PGUID 12 1 0 0 0 f f f t f s 1 0 20 "26" _null_ _null_
_null__null_ pg_stat_get_blocks_hit _null_ _null_ _null_ )); 
diff --git a/src/include/pgstat.h b/src/include/pgstat.h
index 20c4d43..e1b082e 100644
--- a/src/include/pgstat.h
+++ b/src/include/pgstat.h
@@ -326,6 +326,7 @@ typedef struct PgStat_MsgVacuum
     bool        m_autovacuum;
     TimestampTz m_vacuumtime;
     PgStat_Counter m_tuples;
+    PgStat_Counter m_unremovable_tuples;
 } PgStat_MsgVacuum;


@@ -539,6 +540,7 @@ typedef struct PgStat_StatTabEntry

     PgStat_Counter n_live_tuples;
     PgStat_Counter n_dead_tuples;
+    PgStat_Counter n_unremovable_tuples;
     PgStat_Counter changes_since_analyze;

     PgStat_Counter blocks_fetched;
@@ -706,7 +708,7 @@ extern void pgstat_reset_single_counter(Oid objectid, PgStat_Single_Reset_Type t

 extern void pgstat_report_autovac(Oid dboid);
 extern void pgstat_report_vacuum(Oid tableoid, bool shared,
-                     PgStat_Counter tuples);
+                     PgStat_Counter tuples, PgStat_Counter unremovable_tuples);
 extern void pgstat_report_analyze(Relation rel,
                       PgStat_Counter livetuples, PgStat_Counter deadtuples);

On 10/04/2011 03:45 PM, Royce Ausburn wrote:
> I think I get this stats stuff now. Unless someone here thinks it's 
> too hard for a new postgres dev's 2nd patch, I could take a stab. I 
> might take a look at it tonight to get a feel for how hard, and what 
> stats we could collect. I'll start a new thread for discussion.

Adding statistics and good monitoring points isn't hard to do, once you 
figure out how the statistics messaging works.  From looking at your 
patch, you seem to be over that part of the learning curve already.  The 
most time consuming part for vacuum logging patches is setting up the 
test cases and waiting for them to execute.  If you can provide a script 
that does that, it will aid in getting review off to a goo start.  
Basically, whatever you build to test the patch, you should think about 
packaging into a script you can hand to a reviewer/committer.  Normal 
approach is to build a test data set with something like 
generate_series, then create the situation the patch is supposed to log.

Just to clarify what Robert was suggesting a little further, good 
practice here is just to say "this patch needs a catversion bump", but 
not actually do it.  Committers should figure that out even if you don't 
mention it, but sometimes a goof is made; a little reminder doesn't hurt.

> I'm not sure what my next step should be.  I've added this patch to the open commit fest -- is that all for now until
thecommit fest begins review?
 
>    

Basically, we'll get to it next month.  I have my own autovacuum logging 
stuff I'm working on that I expect to slip to that one too, so I can 
easily take on reviewing yours then.  I just fixed the entry in the CF 
app to follow convention by listing your full name.

Main feedback for now on the patch is that few people ever use 
pg_stat_all_tables.  The new counter needs to go into 
pg_stat_user_tables and pg_stat_sys_tables if it's going to be visible 
to the people who are most likely to need it.  I updated the name of the 
patch on the CommitFest to read "Unremovable tuple count on 
pg_stat_*_tables" so the spec here is more clear.  I'd suggest chewing 
on the rest of your ideas, see what else falls out of this, and just 
make sure to submit another update just before the next CF starts.

-- 
Greg Smith   2ndQuadrant US    greg@2ndQuadrant.com   Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support  www.2ndQuadrant.us

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure what my next step should be.  I've added this patch to the open commit fest -- is that all for now until
thecommit fest begins review? 

Yep, except that it might be nice if you could volunteer to review
someone else's patch in turn.  :-)

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 2011-10-05 00:45, Royce Ausburn wrote:
> Attached is v2 of my patch that doesn't update CATALOG_VERSION_NO.  I've also fixed the name of an argument to
pgstat_report_vacuumwhich I don't think was particularly good, and I've replace the word "tuple" with "row" in some
docsI added for consistency.
 
>


Hello Royce,

I reviewed your patch. I think it is in good shape, my two main remarks 
(name of n_unremovable_tup and a remark about documentation at the end 
of this review) are highly subjective and I wouldn't spend time on it 
unless other people have the same opinion.

Remarks:

* rules regression test fails because pg_stat_all_tables is changed, 
pg_stat_sys_tables and pg_stat_user_tables as well, but the new 
expected/rules.out is not part of the patch.

* I'm not sure about the name n_unremovable_tup, since it doesn't convey 
it is about dead tuples and judging from only the name it might as well 
include the live tuples. It also doesn't hint that it is a transient 
condition, which vacuum verbose does with the word 'yet'.
What about n_locked_dead_tup? - this contains both information that it 
is about dead tuples, and the lock suggests that once the lock is 
removed, the dead tuple can be removed.

* The number shows correctly in the pg_stat_relation. This is a testcase 
that gives unremovable dead rows:

A:
create table b (a int);
insert into b values (1);

B:
begin transaction ISOLATION LEVEL repeatable read;
select * from b;

A:
update t set b=2 where i=10;
vacuum verbose t;

Then something similar is shown:

INFO:  vacuuming "public.t"
INFO:  index "t_pkey" now contains 1 row versions in 2 pages
DETAIL:  0 index row versions were removed.
0 index pages have been deleted, 0 are currently reusable.
CPU 0.00s/0.00u sec elapsed 0.00 sec.
INFO:  "t": found 0 removable, 2 nonremovable row versions in 1 out of 1 
pages
DETAIL:  1 dead row versions cannot be removed yet.
There were 0 unused item pointers.
0 pages are entirely empty.
CPU 0.00s/0.01u sec elapsed 0.00 sec.
VACUUM
t=# \x
Expanded display is on.
t=# select * from pg_stat_user_tables;
-[ RECORD 1 ]-----+------------------------------
relid             | 16407
schemaname        | public
relname           | t
seq_scan          | 1
seq_tup_read      | 0
idx_scan          | 1
idx_tup_fetch     | 1
n_tup_ins         | 1
n_tup_upd         | 1
n_tup_del         | 0
n_tup_hot_upd     | 1
n_live_tup        | 2
n_dead_tup        | 0
n_unremovable_tup | 1
last_vacuum       | 2011-11-05 21:15:06.939928+01
last_autovacuum   |
last_analyze      |
last_autoanalyze  |
vacuum_count      | 1
autovacuum_count  | 0
analyze_count     | 0
autoanalyze_count | 0

I did some more tests with larger number of updates which revealed no 
unexpected results.

I was puzzled for a while that n_unremovable_tup >= n_dead_tup doesn't 
hold, after all, the unremovable tuples are dead as well. Neither the 
current documentation nor the documentation added by the patch do help 
in explaining the meaning of n_dead_tup and n_unremovable_tup, which may 
be clear to seasoned vacuum hackers, but not to me. In both the case of 
n_dead_tup it would have been nice if the docs mentioned that dead 
tuples are tuples that are deleted or previous versions of updated 
tuples, and that only analyze updates n_dead_tup (since vacuum cleans 
them), in contrast with n_unremovable_tup that gets updated by vacuum. 
Giving an example of how unremovable dead tuples can be caused would 
IMHO also help understanding.

thanks,
Yeb Havinga

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Yeb Havinga <yebhavinga@gmail.com> wrote:
> I reviewed your patch. I think it is in good shape, my two main remarks
> (name of n_unremovable_tup and a remark about documentation at the end of
> this review) are highly subjective and I wouldn't spend time on it unless
> other people have the same opinion.

I share your opinion; it's not obvious to me what this means either.
I guess this is a dumb question, but why don't we remove all the dead
tuples?

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 2011-11-15 16:16, Robert Haas wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Yeb Havinga<yebhavinga@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I reviewed your patch. I think it is in good shape, my two main remarks
>> (name of n_unremovable_tup and a remark about documentation at the end of
>> this review) are highly subjective and I wouldn't spend time on it unless
>> other people have the same opinion.
> I share your opinion; it's not obvious to me what this means either.
> I guess this is a dumb question, but why don't we remove all the dead
> tuples?
>
The only case I could think of was that a still running repeatable read 
transaction read them before they were deleted and committed by another 
transaction.

-- 
Yeb Havinga
http://www.mgrid.net/
Mastering Medical Data

Excerpts from Robert Haas's message of mar nov 15 12:16:54 -0300 2011:
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Yeb Havinga <yebhavinga@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I reviewed your patch. I think it is in good shape, my two main remarks
> > (name of n_unremovable_tup and a remark about documentation at the end of
> > this review) are highly subjective and I wouldn't spend time on it unless
> > other people have the same opinion.
>
> I share your opinion; it's not obvious to me what this means either.
> I guess this is a dumb question, but why don't we remove all the dead
> tuples?

They were deleted but there are transactions with older snapshots.

I think vacuum uses the term "nondeletable" or "nonremovable".  Not sure
which one is less bad.  Not being a native speaker, they all sound
horrible to me.

--
Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com>
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

On 11/15/2011 10:29 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> They were deleted but there are transactions with older snapshots.
> I think vacuum uses the term "nondeletable" or "nonremovable".  Not sure
> which one is less bad.  Not being a native speaker, they all sound
> horrible to me.
>    

I would go more for something like "deadinuse".  Saying they are 
unremovable isn't very helpful because it doesn't lead the user to 
knowing why.  If the name gives some suggestion as to why they are 
unremovable--in this case that they are still potentially visible and 
usable by old queries--that would be a useful naming improvement to me.

-- 
Greg Smith   2ndQuadrant US    greg@2ndQuadrant.com   Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support  www.2ndQuadrant.us

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> Excerpts from Robert Haas's message of mar nov 15 12:16:54 -0300 2011:
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Yeb Havinga <yebhavinga@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I reviewed your patch. I think it is in good shape, my two main remarks
>> > (name of n_unremovable_tup and a remark about documentation at the end of
>> > this review) are highly subjective and I wouldn't spend time on it unless
>> > other people have the same opinion.
>>
>> I share your opinion; it's not obvious to me what this means either.
>> I guess this is a dumb question, but why don't we remove all the dead
>> tuples?
>
> They were deleted but there are transactions with older snapshots.

Oh.  I was thinking "dead" meant "no longer visible to anyone".   But
it sounds what we call "unremovable" here is what we elsewhere call
"recently dead".

> I think vacuum uses the term "nondeletable" or "nonremovable".  Not sure
> which one is less bad.  Not being a native speaker, they all sound
> horrible to me.

"nondeletable" is surely terrible, since they may well have got into
this state by being deleted.  "nonremovable" is better, but still not
great.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:
> "nondeletable" is surely terrible, since they may well have got into
> this state by being deleted.  "nonremovable" is better, but still not
> great.

Bit of brain storm, including looking over to terminology used for
garbage collection:
- stillreferenceable
- notyetremovable
- referenceable
- reachable

Perhaps those suggest some option that is a bit less horrible?  I
think I like referenceable best, of those.
--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Alvaro Herrera
> <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> Excerpts from Robert Haas's message of mar nov 15 12:16:54 -0300 2011:
>>> I guess this is a dumb question, but why don't we remove all the dead
>>> tuples?

>> They were deleted but there are transactions with older snapshots.

> Oh.  I was thinking "dead" meant "no longer visible to anyone".   But
> it sounds what we call "unremovable" here is what we elsewhere call
> "recently dead".

Would have to look at the code to be sure, but I think that
"nonremovable" is meant to count both live tuples and
dead-but-still-visible-to-somebody tuples.

The question that I think needs to be asked is why it would be useful
to track this using the pgstats mechanisms.  By definition, the
difference between this and the live-tuple count is going to be
extremely unstable --- I don't say small, necessarily, but short-lived.
So it's debatable whether it's worth memorializing the count obtained
by the last VACUUM at all.  And doing it through pgstats is an expensive
thing.  We've already had push-back about the size of the stats table
on large (lots-o-tables) databases.  Adding another counter will impose
a performance overhead on everybody, whether they care about this number
or not.

What's more, to the extent that I can think of use-cases for knowing
this number, I think I would want a historical trace of it --- that is,
not only the last VACUUM's result but those of previous VACUUM cycles.
So pgstats seems like it's both expensive and useless for the purpose.

Right now the only good solution is trawling the postmaster log.
Possibly something like pgfouine could track the numbers in a more
useful fashion.
        regards, tom lane

On 16/11/2011, at 2:05 AM, Yeb Havinga wrote:

> On 2011-10-05 00:45, Royce Ausburn wrote:
>> Attached is v2 of my patch that doesn't update CATALOG_VERSION_NO.  I've also fixed the name of an argument to
pgstat_report_vacuumwhich I don't think was particularly good, and I've replace the word "tuple" with "row" in some
docsI added for consistency. 
>>
>
> I reviewed your patch. I think it is in good shape, my two main remarks (name of n_unremovable_tup and a remark about
documentationat the end of this review) are highly subjective and I wouldn't spend time on it unless other people have
thesame opinion. 
>
> Remarks:
>
> * rules regression test fails because pg_stat_all_tables is changed, pg_stat_sys_tables and pg_stat_user_tables as
well,but the new expected/rules.out is not part of the patch. 

Doh!  Thank you for spotting this.  Should we decide to continue this patch I'll look in to fixing this.

>
> * I'm not sure about the name n_unremovable_tup, since it doesn't convey it is about dead tuples and judging from
onlythe name it might as well include the live tuples. It also doesn't hint that it is a transient condition, which
vacuumverbose does with the word 'yet'. 
> What about n_locked_dead_tup? - this contains both information that it is about dead tuples, and the lock suggests
thatonce the lock is removed, the dead tuple can be removed. 
>

Looks like we have some decent candidates later in the thread.  Should this patch survive I'll look at updating it.

> * The number shows correctly in the pg_stat_relation. This is a testcase that gives unremovable dead rows:
>
> I was puzzled for a while that n_unremovable_tup >= n_dead_tup doesn't hold, after all, the unremovable tuples are
deadas well. Neither the current documentation nor the documentation added by the patch do help in explaining the
meaningof n_dead_tup and n_unremovable_tup, which may be clear to seasoned vacuum hackers, but not to me. In both the
caseof n_dead_tup it would have been nice if the docs mentioned that dead tuples are tuples that are deleted or
previousversions of updated tuples, and that only analyze updates n_dead_tup (since vacuum cleans them), in contrast
withn_unremovable_tup that gets updated by vacuum. Giving an example of how unremovable dead tuples can be caused would
IMHOalso help understanding. 

Fair enough!  I'll review this as well.

Thanks again!

--Royce

On 16/11/2011, at 8:04 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

> Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Alvaro Herrera
>> <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>>> Excerpts from Robert Haas's message of mar nov 15 12:16:54 -0300 2011:
>>>> I guess this is a dumb question, but why don't we remove all the dead
>>>> tuples?
>
>>> They were deleted but there are transactions with older snapshots.
>
>> Oh.  I was thinking "dead" meant "no longer visible to anyone".   But
>> it sounds what we call "unremovable" here is what we elsewhere call
>> "recently dead".
>
> Would have to look at the code to be sure, but I think that
> "nonremovable" is meant to count both live tuples and
> dead-but-still-visible-to-somebody tuples.
>
> The question that I think needs to be asked is why it would be useful
> to track this using the pgstats mechanisms.  By definition, the
> difference between this and the live-tuple count is going to be
> extremely unstable --- I don't say small, necessarily, but short-lived.
> So it's debatable whether it's worth memorializing the count obtained
> by the last VACUUM at all.  And doing it through pgstats is an expensive
> thing.  We've already had push-back about the size of the stats table
> on large (lots-o-tables) databases.  Adding another counter will impose
> a performance overhead on everybody, whether they care about this number
> or not.
>
> What's more, to the extent that I can think of use-cases for knowing
> this number, I think I would want a historical trace of it --- that is,
> not only the last VACUUM's result but those of previous VACUUM cycles.
> So pgstats seems like it's both expensive and useless for the purpose.
>
> Right now the only good solution is trawling the postmaster log.
> Possibly something like pgfouine could track the numbers in a more
> useful fashion.


Thanks all for the input.

Tom:

My first patch attempted to log the number of unremovable tuples in this log, but it was done inappropriately -- it was
includedas part of the log_autovacuum_min_duration's output.  You rightly objected to that patch :) 

Personally I think some log output, done better, would have been more useful for me at the time.  At the time I was
tryingto diagnose an ineffective vacuum and postgres' logs weren't giving me any hints about what was wrong.  I turned
tothe mailing list and got immediate help, but I felt that ideally postgres would be logging something to tell me that
some1 day old transactions were preventing auto vacuum from doing its job.  Something, anything that I could google.
Othernovices in my situation probably wouldn't know to look in the pg_stats* tables, so in retrospect my patch isn't
reallyachieving my original goal. 

Should we consider taking a logging approach instead?

--Royce

>
>
> Personally I think some log output, done better, would have been more useful for me at the time.  At the time I was
tryingto diagnose an ineffective vacuum and postgres' logs weren't giving me any hints about what was wrong.  I turned
tothe mailing list and got immediate help, but I felt that ideally postgres would be logging something to tell me that
some1 day old transactions were preventing auto vacuum from doing its job.  Something, anything that I could google.
Othernovices in my situation probably wouldn't know to look in the pg_stats* tables, so in retrospect my patch isn't
reallyachieving my original goal. 
>
> Should we consider taking a logging approach instead?

Dopey suggestion:

Instead of logging around vacuum and auto_vacuum, perhaps log transactions that are open for longer than some (perhaps
configurable)time?  The default might be pretty large, say 6 hours.  Are there common use cases for txs that run for
longerthan 6 hours?  Seeing a message such as: 

WARNING: Transaction <X> has been open more than Y.  This tx may be holding locks preventing other txs from operating
andmay prevent vacuum from cleaning up deleted rows. 

Would give a pretty clear indication of a problem :)

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
>> Personally I think some log output, done better, would have been more useful for me at the time.  At the time I was
tryingto diagnose an ineffective vacuum and postgres' logs weren't giving me any hints about what was wrong.  I turned
tothe mailing list and got immediate help, but I felt that ideally postgres would be logging something to tell me that
some1 day old transactions were preventing auto vacuum from doing its job.  Something, anything that I could google.
 Othernovices in my situation probably wouldn't know to look in the pg_stats* tables, so in retrospect my patch isn't
reallyachieving my original goal. 
>>
>> Should we consider taking a logging approach instead?
>
> Dopey suggestion:
>
> Instead of logging around vacuum and auto_vacuum, perhaps log transactions that are open for longer than some
(perhapsconfigurable) time?  The default might be pretty large, say 6 hours.  Are there common use cases for txs that
runfor longer than 6 hours?  Seeing a message such as: 
>
> WARNING: Transaction <X> has been open more than Y.  This tx may be holding locks preventing other txs from operating
andmay prevent vacuum from cleaning up deleted rows. 
>
> Would give a pretty clear indication of a problem :)

Well, you could that much just by periodically querying pg_stat_activity.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 16/11/2011, at 12:26 PM, Robert Haas wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
>>> Personally I think some log output, done better, would have been more useful for me at the time.  At the time I was
tryingto diagnose an ineffective vacuum and postgres' logs weren't giving me any hints about what was wrong.  I turned
tothe mailing list and got immediate help, but I felt that ideally postgres would be logging something to tell me that
some1 day old transactions were preventing auto vacuum from doing its job.  Something, anything that I could google.
Othernovices in my situation probably wouldn't know to look in the pg_stats* tables, so in retrospect my patch isn't
reallyachieving my original goal. 
>>>
>>> Should we consider taking a logging approach instead?
>>
>> Dopey suggestion:
>>
>> Instead of logging around vacuum and auto_vacuum, perhaps log transactions that are open for longer than some
(perhapsconfigurable) time?  The default might be pretty large, say 6 hours.  Are there common use cases for txs that
runfor longer than 6 hours?  Seeing a message such as: 
>>
>> WARNING: Transaction <X> has been open more than Y.  This tx may be holding locks preventing other txs from
operatingand may prevent vacuum from cleaning up deleted rows. 
>>
>> Would give a pretty clear indication of a problem :)
>
> Well, you could that much just by periodically querying pg_stat_activity.

Fair enough -- someone knowledgable could set that up if they wanted.  My goal was mostly to have something helpful in
thelogs.  If that's not something postgres wants/needs Ill drop it =) 

On 2011-11-15 22:04, Tom Lane wrote:
> Robert Haas<robertmhaas@gmail.com>  writes:
>> Oh.  I was thinking "dead" meant "no longer visible to anyone".   But
>> it sounds what we call "unremovable" here is what we elsewhere call
>> "recently dead".
> Would have to look at the code to be sure, but I think that
> "nonremovable" is meant to count both live tuples and
> dead-but-still-visible-to-somebody tuples.
>
> The question that I think needs to be asked is why it would be useful
> to track this using the pgstats mechanisms.  By definition, the
> difference between this and the live-tuple count is going to be
> extremely unstable --- I don't say small, necessarily, but short-lived.
> So it's debatable whether it's worth memorializing the count obtained
> by the last VACUUM at all.  And doing it through pgstats is an expensive
> thing.  We've already had push-back about the size of the stats table
> on large (lots-o-tables) databases.  Adding another counter will impose
> a performance overhead on everybody, whether they care about this number
> or not.
>
> What's more, to the extent that I can think of use-cases for knowing
> this number, I think I would want a historical trace of it --- that is,
> not only the last VACUUM's result but those of previous VACUUM cycles.
> So pgstats seems like it's both expensive and useless for the purpose.
>

Before reviewing this patch I didn't even know these kind of dead rows 
could exist. Now I know it, I expect that if I wanted to know the 
current number, I would start looking at table statistics: pg_stat* or 
perhaps contrib/pgstattuple.

Looking at how that looks with transaction a the old version:

t=# begin TRANSACTION ISOLATION LEVEL repeatable read;
BEGIN
t=# select * from t; i  | b
----+--- 10 | 2
(1 row)

in transaction b the new version:
t=# select * from t; i  | b
----+--- 10 | 4
(1 row)

after a vacuum of t:

stat_user_table counts:
n_tup_ins         | 1
n_tup_upd         | 6
n_tup_del         | 0
n_tup_hot_upd     | 6
n_live_tup        | 2
n_dead_tup        | 0
n_unremovable_tup | 1

t=# select * from pgstattuple('t');
-[ RECORD 1 ]------+------
table_len          | 8192
tuple_count        | 1
tuple_len          | 32
tuple_percent      | 0.39
dead_tuple_count   | 1
dead_tuple_len     | 32
dead_tuple_percent | 0.39
free_space         | 8080
free_percent       | 98.63

Apparently pg_stat* counts the recently_dead tuple under n_live_tup, 
else 2 is a wrong number, where pgstattuple counts recently_dead under 
dead_tuple_count. This could be a source of confusion. If there is any 
serious work considered here, IMHO at least the numbers of the two 
different sources of tuple counters should match in terminology and 
actual values. Maybe also if pgstattuple were to include the distinction 
unremovable dead tuples vs dead tuples, a log line by vacuum 
encountering unremovable dead tuples could refer to pgstattuple for 
statistics.

regards,
Yeb Havinga

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:31 AM, Yeb Havinga <yebhavinga@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently pg_stat* counts the recently_dead tuple under n_live_tup, else 2
> is a wrong number, where pgstattuple counts recently_dead under
> dead_tuple_count. This could be a source of confusion. If there is any
> serious work considered here, IMHO at least the numbers of the two different
> sources of tuple counters should match in terminology and actual values.

+1.

> Maybe also if pgstattuple were to include the distinction unremovable dead
> tuples vs dead tuples, a log line by vacuum encountering unremovable dead
> tuples could refer to pgstattuple for statistics.

Not sure about the log line, but allowing pgstattuple to distinguish
between recently-dead and quite-thoroughly-dead seems useful.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
> Fair enough -- someone knowledgable could set that up if they wanted.  My goal was mostly to have something helpful
inthe logs.  If that's not something postgres wants/needs Ill drop it =) 

IMHO, it's generally not desirable to provided hard-coded
functionality that could easily be duplicated in user-space.  We can't
really know whether the user wants this warning at all, and if so what
the cut-off ought to be for a "too old" transaction, and how often the
warning should be emitted.  It's far more flexible for the user to set
it up themselves.  Log clutter is a major problem for some users, and
we shouldn't add to it without a fairly compelling reason.

Just to take an example of something that *couldn't* easily be done in
userspace, suppose VACUUM emitted a NOTICE when the number of
recently-dead tuples was more than a certain (configurable?)
percentage of the table.  That's something that VACUUM could calculate
(or at least estimate) while scanning the table, but it wouldn't be so
easy for the user to get that same data, at least not cheaply.  Now
I'm not sure we need that particular thing; it's just an example.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
> Not sure about the log line, but allowing pgstattuple to distinguish
> between recently-dead and quite-thoroughly-dead seems useful.

The dividing line is enormously unstable though.  pgstattuple's idea of
RecentGlobalXmin could even be significantly different from that of a
concurrently running VACUUM.  I can see the point of having VACUUM log
what it did, but opinions from the peanut gallery aren't worth much.
        regards, tom lane

On 2011-11-16 15:34, Tom Lane wrote:
> Robert Haas<robertmhaas@gmail.com>  writes:
>> Not sure about the log line, but allowing pgstattuple to distinguish
>> between recently-dead and quite-thoroughly-dead seems useful.
> The dividing line is enormously unstable though.  pgstattuple's idea of
> RecentGlobalXmin could even be significantly different from that of a
> concurrently running VACUUM.  I can see the point of having VACUUM log
> what it did, but opinions from the peanut gallery aren't worth much.

I don't understand your the last remark so I want to get it clear: I 
looked up peanut gallery on the wiki. Is 'opinion from the peanut 
gallery' meant to describe my comments as patch reviewer? I'd appreciate 
brutal honesty on this point.

thanks
Yeb

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
> Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
>> Not sure about the log line, but allowing pgstattuple to distinguish
>> between recently-dead and quite-thoroughly-dead seems useful.
>
> The dividing line is enormously unstable though.  pgstattuple's idea of
> RecentGlobalXmin could even be significantly different from that of a
> concurrently running VACUUM.  I can see the point of having VACUUM log
> what it did, but opinions from the peanut gallery aren't worth much.

Hmm, you have a point.

But as Yeb points out, it seems like we should at least try to be more
consistent about the terminology.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Yeb Havinga <yebhavinga@gmail.com> writes:
> On 2011-11-16 15:34, Tom Lane wrote:
>> The dividing line is enormously unstable though.  pgstattuple's idea of
>> RecentGlobalXmin could even be significantly different from that of a
>> concurrently running VACUUM.  I can see the point of having VACUUM log
>> what it did, but opinions from the peanut gallery aren't worth much.

> I don't understand your the last remark so I want to get it clear: I 
> looked up peanut gallery on the wiki. Is 'opinion from the peanut 
> gallery' meant to describe my comments as patch reviewer? I'd appreciate 
> brutal honesty on this point.

No no no, sorry if you read that as a personal attack.  I was trying to
point out that a process running pgstattuple does not have a value of
RecentGlobalXmin that should be considered authoritative --- it is only
a bystander, not the process that might do actual cleanup work.
        regards, tom lane

On 17/11/2011, at 1:47 AM, Robert Haas wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>> Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Not sure about the log line, but allowing pgstattuple to distinguish
>>> between recently-dead and quite-thoroughly-dead seems useful.
>>
>> The dividing line is enormously unstable though.  pgstattuple's idea of
>> RecentGlobalXmin could even be significantly different from that of a
>> concurrently running VACUUM.  I can see the point of having VACUUM log
>> what it did, but opinions from the peanut gallery aren't worth much.
>
> Hmm, you have a point.
>
> But as Yeb points out, it seems like we should at least try to be more
> consistent about the terminology.


Thanks for the discussion so far all.  Would it be worthwhile to make another patch that addresses the points from
Yeb'sreviews?  It's not sounding like this unremovable tuple count is something that postgres wants, but I'm happy to
keepthe patch up to scratch if we're still not sure. 

Cheers,

--Royce

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the discussion so far all.  Would it be worthwhile to make another patch that addresses the points from
Yeb'sreviews?  It's not sounding like this unremovable tuple count is something that postgres wants, but I'm happy to
keepthe patch up to scratch if we're still not sure. 

One question to ask yourself at this point in the process is whether
*you* still think the feature is useful.  I'm fairly persuaded by
Tom's point that the value monitored by this patch will change so
quickly that it won't be useful to have VACUUM store it; it'll be
obsolete by the time you look at the numbers.  If you are also
persuaded by that argument, then clearly it's time to throw in the
towel!

But let's suppose you're NOT persuaded by that argument and you still
want the feature.  In that case, don't just wait for someone else to
stick up for the feature; tell us why you still think it's a good
idea.  Make a case for what you want.  People here are usually
receptive to good ideas, well-presented.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 18/11/2011, at 10:44 AM, Robert Haas wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Royce Ausburn <royce.ml@inomial.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for the discussion so far all.  Would it be worthwhile to make another patch that addresses the points from
Yeb'sreviews?  It's not sounding like this unremovable tuple count is something that postgres wants, but I'm happy to
keepthe patch up to scratch if we're still not sure. 
>
> One question to ask yourself at this point in the process is whether
> *you* still think the feature is useful.  I'm fairly persuaded by
> Tom's point that the value monitored by this patch will change so
> quickly that it won't be useful to have VACUUM store it; it'll be
> obsolete by the time you look at the numbers.  If you are also
> persuaded by that argument, then clearly it's time to throw in the
> towel!
>
> But let's suppose you're NOT persuaded by that argument and you still
> want the feature.  In that case, don't just wait for someone else to
> stick up for the feature; tell us why you still think it's a good
> idea.  Make a case for what you want.  People here are usually
> receptive to good ideas, well-presented.

Okay - thanks Robert.  I think I'll drop it.  Now that I know what to look for in this situation, the changes this
patchincludes aren't of value to me.  That's a pretty good indicator that it's probably not valuable to anyone else. 

I've changed the status of the patch to rejected in the commit fest.