Обсуждение: Toward A Positive Marketing Approach.
Greetings Guys As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few remarks IMHO: 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links, somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER??? 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there. 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral. 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql. 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features. Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These must speak to TCO and ROI over time. 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out! I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100. Michael
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote:
> Greetings Guys
>
> As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to
> marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have
> read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few
> remarks IMHO:
>
> 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as
> social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the
> popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.
Note that the push for postgresql at any given site is likely to be pushed
up from the technical staff. Find us some marketing pros who understand
the postgresql project and we'll let them have at it.
>
> 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links,
> somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that
> offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in
> the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if
> pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???
Links are free. Support for PostgreSQL is free via the mailing lists
and IRC. This free support is better than most call centers.
>
> 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
> accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
> Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
> takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
> A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
> professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.
This is already happening on the postgresql.org page and in the
PostgreSQL Weekly News.
>
> 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
> OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
> like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money
> (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in
> postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T
> contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of
> promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year
> after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.
You can already do this. Kick in money for a developer or consultant
and the program in question can be converted.
>
> 5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a
> decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral.
Ahh, Stonebraker's 4x4 matrix.
>
> 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around
> the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their
> software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a
> sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.
This is being done with the Google Summer of Code.
>
> 7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative
> commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features.
> Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not
> the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These
> must speak to TCO and ROI over time.
Feel free to rewrite any brochures we have. People will be happy
to use them.
>
> 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg.
> After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so
> specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about
> pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!
I actually agree with this.
>
> I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to
> influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.
>
> Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at
> this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like
> to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.
>
> Michael
Overall, I suggest you come to understand more about how open source
projects, and postgresql, specifically work. Discuss with others
*specific* items and how they can be implemented. Action always speaks
more loudly than words. For the most part Josh Berkus has been leading
the marketing effort. It would behoove you to discuss how you can help
him in that effort.
Carry on!
Elein
--------------------------------------------------------------
PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training
--------------------------------------------------------------
elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com
office: (510)655-2584 Yahoo: AElein
cell: (510)543-6079 AIM: varlenallc
fax: (510)217-7008 Skype: varlenallc
PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.
Michael Dean <mdean@sourceview.com> writes: > Greetings Guys > > As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to marketing, I > think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have read all 5000 or so > of this month's emails and want to make a few remarks IMHO: > > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as social > bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the popularity of > postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. And this is a problem why? You seem to have mistaken this as some sort of commercial project that needs to return a profit or some sort of evangelical movement. It is neither. The contributors get the benefit of a good database which for whatever varied reasons satisfies their needs. > 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. After all, > mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so specifically, > vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about pg, make comparisons to > the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out! I do agree with this point (though not the rationale). Bashing mysql (or Oracle) doesn't really accomplish much to improve Postgres or help Postgres users. There is some room for "let's avoid the mistakes others have made" or "learn from what others have done well", but there's an awful lot of contentless "mysql sucks" threads too. Personally I have "mysql" killfiled in these lists. -- greg
Michael, Howdy, glad to see you came back. > 1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as > social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the > popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world. Not really in line with PostgreSQL's "personality". This could work for OpenOffice, but not here. PG is a very engineering-central project and there aren't many people who want to change that. Your other comments have been mostly answered, but: > 3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to > accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's. > Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it > takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql. > A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very > professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help. > > 4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major > OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre, > like Drupal. Actually, what projects who don't have a bias against PostgreSQL mostly need is developer time to help them with code. Drupal already supports Postgres; they need DBAs to help them be faster/better on Postgres. They are in the same boat with lots of other projects, so much so that there is more demand than there are PG volunteers. If you have Postgres DBA experience, I'll be happy to hook you up with someone. Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50. I do think that we could use a list of what other mature OSS projects support PostgreSQL reasonably well already. This is pretty much a data collection effort; are you volunteering for it? We could use it. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
> That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.
Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
J
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix.
Does anyone have a handle on what the problems are? Is it something
that could reasonably be fixed by a Postgres person, or is the real
problem that it'd take a whole lot of both OO-fu and Postgres-fu?
If so, can we find someone with the former nature to collaborate with?
regards, tom lane
On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
> > example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
> > too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
> > $50.
>
> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
>
It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
some third party software and download it and install it in order to work...
you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert Treat wrote:
> On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
>>> example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
>>> too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
>>> $50.
>> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
>>
>
> It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
> database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
> some third party software and download it and install it in order to work...
> you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?
Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or
ODBCng with OO.
Joshua D. Drake
>
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Robert Treat wrote: > >On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >>>Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for > >>>example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still > >>>too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not > >>>$50. > >>Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC? > >> > > > >It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if > >database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find > >some third party software and download it and install it in order to > >work... you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user > >adoption? > > Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or > ODBCng with OO. The ODBC interface is less powerful for OOo than their own SDBC interface AFAIK (which is why they developed it). So while it would be good to have an ODBC driver in there, the SDBC driver will also continue to be developed. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
Tom Lane wrote: > Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes: >> Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example, >> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy. > > That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix. +1 (or +10 if that's not to piggy ;-)
Tom, > or is the real > problem that it'd take a whole lot of both OO-fu and Postgres-fu? > If so, can we find someone with the former nature to collaborate with? OO-Fu, mostly. I've already posted to the DBA project on OOo. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco