Обсуждение: Re: Windows Build System - My final thoughts
On Thursday 30 January 2003 16:01, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > Dave, Lamar and Katie can cheer now 'cuze this is the last comment > I'm going to make on this. All others will be ignored, probably. > up. Yet all three of you are advocating that the PostgreSQL stamp > of approval should be immediately placed on it (ok, Lamar may not > be as in favor as the Dave and Katie). For the record, again, I am not at all in favor of a Win32 native port. I have never been in favor of a Win32 native port (see the archives -- it's in there). I am in favor of fair testing for all ports, and less of an emotional response to the idea of a Win32 port. It's going to happen; we can't stop it; we might as well see how best to handle it. And I am definitely not in favor of putting the Royal Seal of PGDG on the code that is out there now. It _isn't_ proven. And, as Tom just said, it's 7.2, and we're not due to make an Officially Stamped Win32 native port until 7.4. But it doesn't take AC power cycling to prove it, either. And so I objected to the tone and to the extremity of the proposed testing, relative to the testing we do now for the other ports. But I also see the futility of withholding the Official Stamp of Approval -- if Win32 PostgreSQL is out there (and it will be, whether we like it or not), then we will get flak over it if it breaks. Logically we should do everything we can to make sure the port is as stable as possible for Win32 -- and power cycle testing ain't the right way. ISTM that Dave, Katie, Jan, et all are doing this. They even seem to know what they are talking about, which is better than most Win32 partisans. There actually _can_ be reasonable people who use an unreasonable OS, for whatever reasons they may have. Do I like it? No. Can I change it? No. Can I help test the Win32 port? Yes, even though I don't want to do so. Can I be reasonable and patient with those who are doing the work on the Win32 port? Yes, I can. Do I need to sling the napalm because I don't like it? Not on the mailing lists (hmm, need to get some naptha, some palmitic acid....might be fun to sling some napalm in the back yard to rid the place of weeds, and get some relaxation to boot....). -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) Let me shoot out some comments on this. First, clearly the Win32 port is going to have more port-specific code paths than any other port, so it is going to require extra testing even if it wasn't our first non-Unix port. You can expect it to take some extra effort even after the port has stabalized because when we add something that works only on Unix, we will need to code some workaround in Win32. Second, there are going to be new error cases on this platform that we can't anticipate, and some of that isn't going to show until we get it released. Documenting those pitfalls, like only using NTFS, is a good start. Third, I suspect folks running Win32 aren't as particular about stability/reliability, or they would have left MS products already. Fourth, some say Win32 isn't an acceptable platform. It may or may not be for specific people, but Linux may be an unacceptable platform for some people too. I don't think we can second guess the users. We will do our best and see how it goes. Also, I have heard from several people that XP is the first OS MS got right. That may or may not be true, but some feel things are getting better. It is all a continuim with these OS's. Some are great, some mediocre, some really bad, but people make decisions and choose bad ones all the time. PostgreSQL just needs to be there, if only to migrate them to a better platform later. If we aren't there, we can't show them how good we are. As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those using binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we are going to have more binary users vs. source users on Win32 than on any other platform, so at this stage I think making thing easier for the majority of our Unix developers is the priority, meaning we should use our existing Makefiles and cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do VC++ project files somehow. Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, and it is _threaded_: http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ Now, that's a port! Also, when I am back home for an extended period starting in March, I will going through Jan's patch (if no one does it first) and submit/apply it in pieces that address specific Win32 issues, like path names or carriage returns. Once those are in, we can look at the more complex issues of build handling. So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4. It will not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do. We are also getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may help us with Win32 port failures too. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) No duh. Whew. > Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, > and it is _threaded_: > http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or write Japanese can try it out? -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
> As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those using > binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we are going to have > more binary users vs. source users on Win32 than on any other platform, > so at this stage I think making thing easier for the majority of our > Unix developers is the priority, meaning we should use our existing > Makefiles and cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do > VC++ project files somehow. I'm ignorant when it comes to build environments on windows, but I was under the impression that DJGPP was mostly a complete environment. Are there any plans to support it, or is it even possible? > So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4. It will > not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do. We are also > getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may help us with Win32 > port failures too. Interesting consolation :) Regards,Jeff Davis
Bruce Momjian wrote: <snip> > > So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4. It will > not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do. We are also > getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may help us with Win32 > port failures too. If anyone's interested, the "PostgreSQL 7.3.1 Proof of Concept for Windows Alpha 1" (yes the warnings are even built into the name) easy-installer that I whipped up using Inno Setup was quietly uploaded to the pgsql project on Sourceforge the other night. It's using PostgreSQL + cygwin, pretty much stock standard but pre-installed and wrapped up into a single installable. As an indicater, having made no release annoucement, and only having put a one paragraph small mention with a link to it on the Techdocs "Installing On Windows" page (with warnings), over 1,600 people downloaded it in the first 24 hours (that's about 17.1 GB of bandwidth). This was just a version so that I could practise some windows packaging and see what kind of things we'd need to address. Dave has already pointed out that we're probably going to need to do this so it can be made into a "Merge Module" and other things. A couple of bits of interest turned up whilst packaging: + There are unix command line tools that PostgreSQL relies on. For example, when running initdb, it errors out if some tools aren't present. i.e. sed, grep, ash (cygwin's "/bin/sh"), and from memory a few others + GPL licensing issues. Am trying to get my head around the implications - with regards to licensing - if we released a proper version with some of the cygwin tools included... i.e. grep, sed, etc. Don't think that places could use it embedded with their products and not at least have source available, but still haven't totally grokked this all completely yet. Not going to commit any code to the GBorg project that was setup the other day until this is sorted out. PostgreSQL 7.4 on Win32 should be properly BSD too. + Aside from all this, it might be nice to have a few Win32 specific gui pieces in place at the time that PostgreSQL 7.4 Win32 is released. Am sure they'll develop over time, but was thinking we should at least make a good impression with the first release. Hey, if we make a really bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables "random_query_delay" (minutes), "crash_how_often" (seconds), and "reboot_plus_corrupt_please" (true/false)? Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift -- "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there." - Indira Gandhi
On Saturday 01 February 2003 01:26, Lamar Owen wrote: > On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) > > No duh. Whew. > > > Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, > > and it is _threaded_: > > > > http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ > > Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or > write Japanese can try it out? Can't see one, but here is a summarized translation of the relevant parts as I understand them. HTH Ian Barwick barwick@gmx.net http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ ------------------------------- "Announcement about Powergres" * Release of [ Beta download ] of PowerGres (31.1.2003) * [Press release] (27.11.2002) http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/introduction.php ----------------------------------------------- "PowerGres (PostgreSQL on Windows)" "The standard open source database 'PostgreSQL' on Windows" PowerGres is a DBMS which has been developed on the basis of PostgreSQL and ported to Windows (2000 / XP). PowerGres' features: Port of Postgres to Windows The popular Unix/Linux OS Database "postgresql" becomes more accessible Optimised for the Windows environment A thread model enabling effective processing of multiple transactions is used.This enables maximum performance in a windows environment. Web back end DB at low cost There is no limit to the number of users who can connect concurrently, making (PowerGres) suitable as a low cost web app backend DB GUI admin tool A GUI admin tool is packaged with powergres. This enables beginners to perform database management visually / per point and click Japanese manual provided (translation of original Postgres manuals) C, Java Interface spport API for C and Java provided (pretty pictures, presumably of GUI admin tool) http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/function.php =========================================== "Table of PowerGres functions" (comparision with "other DBs for windows", seems a bit pointless, left out) http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/catalog.php ========================================== "Product catalogue" (more: overview) Environment: CPU: Pentiium or compat, min 300Mhz OS: Windows 2000 (SP2 or later), XP Memory: 128MB (rec: 256MB +) Drive space:100MB+ Product: - 1 CD ROM - PowerGres installer - PowerGres . PowerGres GUI admin tol - PostgreSQL 7.3 Japanese documentation - also: - PowerGres handbook - user registration - misc Installation support Free support by email and fax for 30 days after registration Price 48,000 Yen + tax (probably 5% sales tax; we're talking roughly total US$ 500 or about the samein Euros) Available from March 2003 (scheduled) Beta download available from Jan 2003 http://powergres.sra.co.jp/ =========================== (Beta dowload) Thankyou for your interest in PowerGres. A free beta version of PowerGres is available. Currently 1.0b s available for download. It can be evaluated for 30 days. Please do not hesitate to try before you buy. We cannot offer any support for this software. Use at own risk (blah blah). Also , be aware the Beta version has some restrictions / lack of features compared to the release version, see here: http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/beta_restriction.php (list of things, mainly command line tools with certainoptions not working properly) DOWNLOAD FORM: Name* Email* Company Dept. Postal code* Address* * required. (Note: Japanese postal code are like 111-2222 ). ( There follows a select box clicked by default enabling SRA to send you emails... The button is "Send".) (following that, privacy info boilerplate). http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/faq.php ====================================== (not a complete translation, only the interesting points from this page) "FAQ" - License: one license per server; client software is unrestricted ,though no free support available. - it is possible to transfer data from a PostgreSQL installation to PowerGres, though some restrictions apply; - restrictions are among others: - max simultaneous connections 50 users (seems to contradict a previous statement...) - User-definable functions only in C, SQL, PL/pgSQL - No UNIX domain socket support - authentication onlytrust/reject/md5
Lamar Owen wrote: > On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) > > No duh. Whew. > > > Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, > > and it is _threaded_: > > > http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ > > Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or write > Japanese can try it out? No, sorry. Tatsuo mentioned that. However, Babelfish will do the translation: http://world.altavista.com/ Put in the URL, and choose translate Japanese to English. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Jeff Davis wrote: > > As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those using > > binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we are going to have > > more binary users vs. source users on Win32 than on any other platform, > > so at this stage I think making thing easier for the majority of our > > Unix developers is the priority, meaning we should use our existing > > Makefiles and cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do > > VC++ project files somehow. > > I'm ignorant when it comes to build environments on windows, but I was under > the impression that DJGPP was mostly a complete environment. Are there any > plans to support it, or is it even possible? I don't think we want to throw our Unix folks into culture shock. Let's pick one build environment and go from there, either cygwin or something else. Once the patches are in, folks can test the various build options. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Justin Clift wrote: > + Aside from all this, it might be nice to have a few Win32 specific > gui pieces in place at the time that PostgreSQL 7.4 Win32 is released. > Am sure they'll develop over time, but was thinking we should at least > make a good impression with the first release. Hey, if we make a really > bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the > quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a > good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables "random_query_delay" > (minutes), "crash_how_often" (seconds), and "reboot_plus_corrupt_please" > (true/false)? What we need is for the backend to query postgresql.org to set those parameters, so we can control how many Win32 users adopt PostgreSQL. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania19073
Bruce Momjian wrote: > Justin Clift wrote: > >> + Aside from all this, it might be nice to have a few Win32 specific >>gui pieces in place at the time that PostgreSQL 7.4 Win32 is released. >>Am sure they'll develop over time, but was thinking we should at least >>make a good impression with the first release. Hey, if we make a really >>bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the >>quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a >>good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables "random_query_delay" >>(minutes), "crash_how_often" (seconds), and "reboot_plus_corrupt_please" >>(true/false)? > > > What we need is for the backend to query postgresql.org to set those > parameters, so we can control how many Win32 users adopt PostgreSQL. :-) "All your [data] base belong to us" ? ;-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift -- "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there." - Indira Gandhi
Lamar Owen wrote: > > On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) > > No duh. Whew. > > > Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, > > and it is _threaded_: > > > http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ > > Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or write > Japanese can try it out? Bruce, better be careful! If SRA hasn't done exzessive power-off and other crash testing, beware of the dogs :-) Jan -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #