Обсуждение: PostgreSQL License

What about the PostgreSQL License. If I use the database for the commercial purpose, Do
I have to purchase the license?.

P.S. For example MySQL Databse have the commercial license for that.


Best Regards
Artjom Smekalin

Nope. PostgreSQL is BSD licensed.

On Feb 10, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Artemy wrote:

> What about the PostgreSQL License. If I use the database for the
> commercial purpose, Do
> I have to purchase the license?.
>
> P.S. For example MySQL Databse have the commercial license for that.
>
>
> Best Regards
> Artjom Smekalin
>
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)---------------------------
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--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com

PostgreSQL has BSD license. Tha means do what do you want :)

    Oleg
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Artemy wrote:

> What about the PostgreSQL License. If I use the database for the commercial purpose, Do
> I have to purchase the license?.
>
> P.S. For example MySQL Databse have the commercial license for that.
>
>
> Best Regards
> Artjom Smekalin
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>

    Regards,
        Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

Andrew Rawnsley wrote:
> Nope. PostgreSQL is BSD licensed.

BSD basically means "If you find someone who is willing to pay you money
for this, congratulations. But don't expect us to take responsibility
for it and don't try to sue us for whatever happened".


Jan

>
> On Feb 10, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Artemy wrote:
>
>> What about the PostgreSQL License. If I use the database for the
>> commercial purpose, Do
>> I have to purchase the license?.
>>
>> P.S. For example MySQL Databse have the commercial license for that.

P.P.S. BSE is Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, also known as Mad Cow
Disease. Even if MySQL has a few features that might be described this
way, we do not appreciate this sort of MySQL-bashing on our
mailinglists, okay?

>>
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Artjom Smekalin
>>
>> ---------------------------(end of
>> broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to
>> majordomo@postgresql.org
>>
> --------------------
>
> Andrew Rawnsley
> President
> The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
> (740) 587-0114
> www.ravensfield.com
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster


--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #

JanWieck@Yahoo.com (Jan Wieck) writes:
>>> P.S. For example MySQL Databse have the commercial license for that.
>
> P.P.S. BSE is Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, also known as Mad Cow
> Disease. Even if MySQL has a few features that might be described this
> way, we do not appreciate this sort of MySQL-bashing on our
> mailinglists, okay?

Indeed.  Association of MySQL(tm) with BSE is the sort of thing that
the owners of the trademark would doubtless consider to fall into the
set of things that are detrimental, harmful, and damaging.

   "The use must not be detrimental, i.e., harmful or damaging, to the
   value of any of the MySQL Marks, or to MySQL AB, its brand
   integrity, reputation or goodwill"

Remmber also that...

   "When using any MySQL AB Mark, you should use the "tm" symbol. This
   symbol provides notice to third parties of MySQL AB's rights in its
   Marks."

Furthermore, there is a requirement beyond that...  The following
attribution statement must be used in all material referencing the
MySQL AB Marks:

  "[Insert the MySQL Marks that appears in that particular piece] is a
  registered trademark of MySQL AB in the United States, the European
  Union and other countries."

Lest they should decide to sue me for improper attribution, I'll make
sure I attribute things properly.  (And I rather think that everyone
else that discusses it should be expected to attribute it properly...
If that seems annoying and anal-retentive, well, yes, I'm trying to
make it annoying...)

MySQL is a registered trademark of MySQL AB in the United States, the
European Union and other countries.
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="cbbrowne.com" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/sap.html
/* I'd just like to take this moment to point out that C has all
   the expressive power of two dixie cups and a string.
 */
-- Jamie Zawinski in the XKeyCaps source

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Chris Browne wrote:

> JanWieck@Yahoo.com (Jan Wieck) writes:
> >>> P.S. For example MySQL Databse have the commercial license for that.
> >
> > P.P.S. BSE is Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, also known as Mad Cow
> > Disease. Even if MySQL has a few features that might be described this
> > way, we do not appreciate this sort of MySQL-bashing on our
> > mailinglists, okay?
>
> Indeed.  Association of MySQL(tm) with BSE is the sort of thing that
> the owners of the trademark would doubtless consider to fall into the
> set of things that are detrimental, harmful, and damaging.
>
>    "The use must not be detrimental, i.e., harmful or damaging, to the
>    value of any of the MySQL Marks, or to MySQL AB, its brand
>    integrity, reputation or goodwill"
>
> Remmber also that...
>
>    "When using any MySQL AB Mark, you should use the "tm" symbol. This
>    symbol provides notice to third parties of MySQL AB's rights in its
>    Marks."
>
> Furthermore, there is a requirement beyond that...  The following
> attribution statement must be used in all material referencing the
> MySQL AB Marks:
>
>   "[Insert the MySQL Marks that appears in that particular piece] is a
>   registered trademark of MySQL AB in the United States, the European
>   Union and other countries."
>
> Lest they should decide to sue me for improper attribution, I'll make
> sure I attribute things properly.  (And I rather think that everyone
> else that discusses it should be expected to attribute it properly...
> If that seems annoying and anal-retentive, well, yes, I'm trying to
> make it annoying...)
>
> MySQL is a registered trademark of MySQL AB in the United States, the
> European Union and other countries.

Actually, unless you're a licensee, they have no more control over how you
use MySQL (tm) than provided by international / national copyright laws
give them, no matter how much they try to get from you.  And since the GPL
doesn't allow one to ADD restrictions to GPL software, and in no ways
addresses trademark usage, but only distribution, as long as you aren't
distributing MySQL (tm) they have no right to say how you can use their
mark outside of how the international / national laws that bind you
personally say.

Fair use means you can say "I think MySQL (tm) is utter crapola" and
you're ok.  You're not a licensee of MySQL AB, you signed no contract, and
you are giving them their trademark due by putting the TM mark in.

No amount of gum flapping from them changes that.  they have no more hold
on you than standard international / national trademark law.

Please don't cross-post your question to more than one list!

Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Can anyone explain the PostgreSQL License to me?
> Can I create a database with it and sell the database also preventing
> the buyer from reselling it?
> Can I change in the logos of the PostgreSQL system and its name?

Yes.

You only have to make sure that the original license text is included
in your license.  This does not limit what you are allowed to do with
the software.

Yours,
Laurenz Albe
-- 
Cybertec | https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com

On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> but it is saying (without fee)
> if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
> so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
> right?
> "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
> hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
> the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

        hp

--
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | we build much bigger, better disasters now
|_|_) |                    | because we have much more sophisticated
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | management tools.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Ross Anderson <https://www.edge.org/>

On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> but it is saying (without fee)
> if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
> so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
> right?
> "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
> hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
> the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

        hp

--

Andreas Joseph Krogh

CTO / Partner - Visena AS

Mobile: +47 909 56 963

andreas@visena.com

www.visena.com

 

 

On Sep 17, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas@visena.com> wrote:

 

På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <hjp-pgsql@hjp.at>:

On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> but it is saying (without fee)
> if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
> so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
> right?
> "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
> hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
> the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

        hp

 

A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the original license-file(s).

 

I take it that the OP has an app/dataset on top of PG he/she wishes to market (and protect).  Perfectly legit, no? Not clear if there is a desire to disable direct db access.

--

Andreas Joseph Krogh

CTO / Partner - Visena AS

Mobile: +47 909 56 963

andreas@visena.com

www.visena.com

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Hi all thanks,
> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for 
> example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was 
> created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to 
> deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web 
> app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>
You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), 
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting 
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any 
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app 
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
> 
> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>> Hi all thanks,
>> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for 
>> example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was 
>> created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to 
>> deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web 
>> app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>>
> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), 
> installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting 
> your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any 
> maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app 
> and schema and data.
> 
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

Why not?

Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of 
Postgres.


-- 
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

> On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
>> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>>> Hi all thanks,
>>> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for example for a pharmacy that stores data by
barcodewhile the DB was created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the product to him
canI sell the package that contains web app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code? 
>>>
>> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), installing postgres and your schema
(somewhere)and the data supporting your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any maintenance and
supportyou care to specify. You can copy-right your app and schema and data. 
>> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>
> Why not?
>
> Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of Postgres.
>
I see your point, but aren’t they in essence charging for their efforts in making, managing their fork.  There are
plentyof vendors, for a time I was one, who happily apply a schema to which ever database the client supplied (mssql,
ora,pg in my case). 

On 9/18/19 11:23 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian.klaver@aklaver.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
>>> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>>>> Hi all thanks,
>>>> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for example for a pharmacy that stores data by
barcodewhile the DB was created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the product to him
canI sell the package that contains web app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
 
>>>>
>>> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), installing postgres and your schema
(somewhere)and the data supporting your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any maintenance and
supportyou care to specify. You can copy-right your app and schema and data.
 
>>> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of Postgres.
>>
> I see your point, but aren’t they in essence charging for their efforts in making, managing their fork.  There are
plentyof vendors, for a time I was one, who happily apply a schema to which ever database the client supplied (mssql,
ora,pg in my case).
 

In general that pretty much applies to a lot of software that has price. 
You don't actually own the software, just a paid license to use it. I'm 
not saying whether it is a good idea or not, just that it is possible.


-- 
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

On 9/18/19 3:11 PM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Thanks,
> but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?

Yes, otherwise these folks:

https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/

would a good deal less business.

> as you said:
> 
>     You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL 
> 
> should I in the contract write that the price does not include 
> installing PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
>   or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont 
> count installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that 
> price?
> 
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com 
> <mailto:robjsargent@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>      > Hi all thanks,
>      > I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work
>     locally for
>      > example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
>      > created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
>      > deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
>      > app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>      >
>     You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
>     installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
>     your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
>     maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your
>     app
>     and schema and data.
> 
>     You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
> 


-- 
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

Thanks,
but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?

as you said:

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL 

should I in the contract write that the price does not include installing PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?

 or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont count installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that price?

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Hi all thanks,
> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
> example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
> created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
> deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
> app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>
You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for installing PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for services you provide not for software that other people provide.

That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for installing PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for services you provide not for software that other people provide.

That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for installing PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for services you provide not for software that other people provide.

That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

 

Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting.  Adrian took issue with that statement, as do I.   While Google isn't finding me anything that says "Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:

• Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge money to distribute Postgresql.  You can't.

• Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more restrictive license, can be sold.  The free software folks consider the right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free software.  [1]

• The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source license, similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license itself explicitly states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."

Cheers,

Ken

[1]  https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html

[2]  https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/

[3]  https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:35 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 8:26 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for installing PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for services you provide not for software that other people provide.

That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

 

Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting.  Adrian took issue with that statement, as do I.   While Google isn't finding me anything that says "Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:

• Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge money to distribute Postgresql.  You can't.

• Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more restrictive license, can be sold.  The free software folks consider the right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free software.  [1]

• The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source license, similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license itself explicitly states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."

How do you sell what you don't own?

You can do so because the owners have granted you the right to do so.  They were just good enough to not charge you money for it.

1. selling physical media that software comes on,
   
2. selling access to a server where the software resides, and
3. selling a license to use software.

Selling a license to Postgres is worse than selling bottled water, because at least the bottled water adds a few chemicals for taste, and they put it in conveniently sized and shaped bottles.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:20:14 -0500
Ron <ronljohnsonjr@gmail.com> wrote:

> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
> PostgreSQL.
> 
> Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software
> that other people provide.

That makes a lot of sense. A head gasket costs about $25.00.
*Installing* the head gasket costs well over a thousand. As long as the
customer has the option to install it himself, you're selling your
services.

If you've modified PostgreSQL, as long as you offer the source code to
the customer and say "good luck installing it by yourself",  you can
charge to install it without breaking even the GNU GPL.

My understanding is the PostgreSQL license is more like the MIT
license, which actually allows one to modify the code and claim it as
proprietary.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

On 19/09/2019 13:48, Steve Litt wrote:
> My understanding is the PostgreSQL license is more like the MIT
> license, which actually allows one to modify the code and claim it as
> proprietary.
You could do that, yes. :)

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_derived_databases

Cheers,
   Steve