Обсуждение: Response from MySql AB (Re: Humor me: Postgresql vs. MySql (esp. licensing))
Here's an interesting response from mysql.com sales. Frankly, I don't see how using it on multiple internal servers violates the GPL?!?: <btw, forgive me if this comes through as a repost later. I'm still getting used to having multiple email addrs in this client :)> Hi John, Thank you for your interest in MySQL. My answers below. > -----Original Message----- > From: mysql@sourceillustrated.com > [mailto:mysql@sourceillustrated.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:50 AM > To: licensing@mysql.com > Subject: MySQL Licensing Question, US, -unknown- > > > The following form was submitted via MySQL.com feedback engine: > > Name: John Wells > > Email address: mysql@sourceillustrated.com > > Type of interest: for company use > > Country: US > > Support contract: no > > Enter Your Questions, Comments, Feedback or Your Message here: > > I'm a little confused on the meaning of "distributing either externally or internally" on the license page. If we develop an application that uses MySql as the backend database and > use in on our > internal LAN, do we need to license it commmercially? Internal distribution applies to internally distributing/installing more than one application. If you plan to use one installation of MySQL it would not be considered distribution and you could use if for free with your "internally built application." > How would this > be in violation of the GPL? If your application (internal or external) is licensed under the terms of the GPL, you are allowed to distribute MySQL, also under the GPL, for free. What do you mean, exactly, > by internal > distribution? > > Also, if we write an application that expects MySql (like > a web app), > but we don't package the database with the application > and tell the > customer that they must download and install it, is this > violation of > the GPL? Again, if your application is licensed under the terms of the GPL you can use MySQL for free. If your application is not licensed under the terms of the GPL, commercial non-GPL licenses are necessary. You will need to purchase licenses under this scenario (unless you go GPL), please review our licensing examples, http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing-examples.html. How are you planning to use MySQL? Mr. Matt Fredrickson, Sales Executive MySQL, Inc. - www.mysql.com Office: +1 425 390 0154 Fax: +1 425 663 2001 MySQL Featured in the Wall Street Journal: http://webreprints.djreprints.com/785490482991.html
>http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing-examples.html. > > Well this is very interesting indeed. Beat that: "You need a license if you sell a product designed specifically for use with MySQL or that requires the MySQL server to function at all. This is true whether or not you provide MySQL for your client as part of your product distribution." So whatever compiled program or script you sell, if it works only with MySQL (say you want to sell a shell script that checks if a row has been added to a MySQL table), you need a license. Then a question arises though, when I make my script to work with MySQL AND PostgreSQL too, does this make the above statement not valid in my case? Kaarel
my personal question is how well any of this would even stand up in a court of law, or how would you enforce it? On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Kaarel wrote: > > >http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing-examples.html. > > > > > Well this is very interesting indeed. Beat that: > > "You need a license if you sell a product designed specifically for use > with MySQL or that requires the MySQL server to function at all. This is > true whether or not you provide MySQL for your client as part of your > product distribution." > > So whatever compiled program or script you sell, if it works only with > MySQL (say you want to sell a shell script that checks if a row has been > added to a MySQL table), you need a license. Then a question arises > though, when I make my script to work with MySQL AND PostgreSQL too, > does this make the above statement not valid in my case? > > Kaarel > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html >
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Kaarel wrote: > > >http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing-examples.html. > > > > > Well this is very interesting indeed. Beat that: > > "You need a license if you sell a product designed specifically for use > with MySQL or that requires the MySQL server to function at all. This is > true whether or not you provide MySQL for your client as part of your > product distribution." > > So whatever compiled program or script you sell, if it works only with > MySQL (say you want to sell a shell script that checks if a row has been > added to a MySQL table), you need a license. Then a question arises > though, when I make my script to work with MySQL AND PostgreSQL too, > does this make the above statement not valid in my case? Keep in mind, this is MySQL AB interpreting the GPL for you. While they can say all they want that you have to do this or that, the fact is, the only document that says what you REALLY have to do is the GPL. Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and give your customer a copy of MySQL on debian or what not and you will be in full compliance with the GPL as long as you were smart enough to use a LGPL or freer ODBC driver within your application, like iodbc (www.iodbc.org) which is LGPLd. MySQL is using FUD about the GPL to push commercial licenses. I consider this unethical in the extreme. If I were a MySQL user I would honestly consider spending some time to create my own LGPL'd connection libs for 4.x to be rid of the licensing issues. If they were a pure GPL company I would at least have some respect for them using GPL on their connect libs, i.e. sink or swim on the GPL, but the fact is they are using the fear and uncertainty about where the GPL applies to their customer's commercial code to sell licenses. Their rhetoric on the web site has been cleaned up and toned down a bit, but it still has a whole "if you're not sure, better buy a commercial license" feel to it.
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote:
> Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL
> connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and
Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically
risking it.
I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's
claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about
software licenses.
A
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Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street
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> On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote: > > Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL > > connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and > > Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically > risking it. That's true of just about any software license. > I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's > claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about > software licenses. That's true of just about any software license. Jon
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote: > > Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL > > connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and > > Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically > risking it. > > I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's > claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about > software licenses. My point is that MySQL is licensed under the GPL, so what MySQL says is not as important as what the GPL says. I.e. consult a lawyer if you're wondering, but don't listen to MySQL AB for your legal advice.
>Keep in mind, this is MySQL AB interpreting the GPL for you. While they >can say all they want that you have to do this or that, the fact is, the >only document that says what you REALLY have to do is the GPL. > > Does MySQL AB interpret their license as GPL at all? If they have made changes to the general GPL license then it's more like MySQL non-commercial license than GPL. Kaarel
Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info> writes: > On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote: >> Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL >> connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and > > Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically > risking it. > > I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's > claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about > software licenses. This is especially true considering the fact that the Free Software Foundation would *love* for MySQL AB to be right on this one. The interpretation of the GPL the FSF forwards is the one that they feel that they can safely defend in a court of law. However, if there was a precedent set for MySQL AB's interpretation that would suit them right down to the ground. Jason
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Kaarel wrote: > > >Keep in mind, this is MySQL AB interpreting the GPL for you. While they > >can say all they want that you have to do this or that, the fact is, the > >only document that says what you REALLY have to do is the GPL. > > > > > Does MySQL AB interpret their license as GPL at all? If they have made > changes to the general GPL license then it's more like MySQL > non-commercial license than GPL. Having had a short dialog with the MySQL folks, they've said, for the most part: "It's GPL. If you're not sure, consult the GPL and the FSF." I.e. they aren't adding anything to the GPL, but they do try to interpret it in such a way as to require commercial license purchase wherever possible.
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 jearl@bullysports.com wrote: > Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info> writes: > > > On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote: > >> Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL > >> connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and > > > > Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically > > risking it. > > > > I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's > > claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about > > software licenses. > > This is especially true considering the fact that the Free Software > Foundation would *love* for MySQL AB to be right on this one. The > interpretation of the GPL the FSF forwards is the one that they feel > that they can safely defend in a court of law. However, if there was > a precedent set for MySQL AB's interpretation that would suit them > right down to the ground. 'K, you lost me here ... from what I've seen, MySQL AB's license is "GPL with exceptions that force you to use our commercial version" ... whereas my understanding of the GPL itself is that there are no exceptions, period ...
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org> writes: > On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 jearl@bullysports.com wrote: > >> Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info> writes: >> >> > On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote: >> >> Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL >> >> connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and >> > >> > Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically >> > risking it. >> > >> > I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's >> > claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about >> > software licenses. >> >> This is especially true considering the fact that the Free Software >> Foundation would *love* for MySQL AB to be right on this one. The >> interpretation of the GPL the FSF forwards is the one that they >> feel that they can safely defend in a court of law. However, if >> there was a precedent set for MySQL AB's interpretation that would >> suit them right down to the ground. > > 'K, you lost me here ... from what I've seen, MySQL AB's license is > "GPL with exceptions that force you to use our commercial version" > ... whereas my understanding of the GPL itself is that there are no > exceptions, period ... I can see why I lost you. I left out the most important bit. MySQL AB uses the same GPL as the rest of the world. The difference is that MySQL AB's interpretation of the GPL relies on a very broad interpretation of "derivative work." They tell their customers that if the application requires MySQL that it is a derivative work regardless of all the esoterica like how the application might be linked, etc. From what I understand there are actually some precedents that could be stretched to support this position. The definition of a derivative work that the FSF uses is considerably more narrow, but that's not because they want it to be so. The FSF is simply using a definition that it is relatively certain that it can defend in court. If MySQL AB were to set a precedent that widens what constitutes a derivative work then the FSF would be very pleased. Most developers don't have a clue about the intricacies of Free Software licenses, and most managers are wary about getting on the wrong side of the GPL (I would be too if there was a chance of having to face Eben Moglen in court). Since the commercial license for MySQL is not too terribly high, MySQL gets quite a few sales. Since the whole kit-and-kaboodle is untested in court you can't even really accuse MySQL of being devious. It's even possible that the courts will uphold their version of what constitutes a derivative work. Those of us here would rather go with the altogether safer PostgreSQL. It won't truncate your large integers without warning, it doesn't consider 0000-00-00 a valid date, and it's license is unambiguous. I hope that is a little clearer. Jason
Marc G. Fournier wrote: >my personal question is how well any of this would even stand up in a >court of law, or how would you enforce it? > > I think this is not the issue for most business owners. If something even smells like it might end up in a court of law, they're not going to touch it with the proverbial 10-foot pole. Especially something as interchangeable as inexpensive database software. Regardess of how outlandish MySQL's interpretation of the GPL might be, any sane businessperson would try to conform to their intent (by paying reasonable commercial licensing or just avoiding it altogether) rather than try to aruge it in court. - Marsh
El Jue 09 Oct 2003 13:05, Andrew Sullivan escribió:
> On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:52:36AM -0600, scott.marlowe wrote:
> > Fact: If you write your application to work with ODBC -> MySQL
> > connectivity, you can write a closed source app and sell it for money and
>
> Fact: nobody's ever tested any of this in court, so you're basically
> risking it.
>
> I think if people want legal advice about the status of MySQL's
> claims about GPL, they'd best consult a lawyer who knows a lot about
> software licenses.
How about making a consult to the lawer that writes in "Linux Journal",
Lawrence Rosen. I'm not sure if he still writes for LJ, but he can be caught
at www.lawrencerosen.com (well, the site says it's under construction).
By the way, the legal problemas are even more difficult then anyone can
imagine. They change from country to country.
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scrappy@postgresql.org ("Marc G. Fournier") writes:
> my personal question is how well any of this would even stand up in
> a court of law, or how would you enforce it?
If you get a threatening letter in the mail with all sorts of legal
verbiage such that you have to pay for a lawyer to interpret it,
that's going to cause a bunch of Loss of Sleep, Fear, Uncertainty, and
Doubt.
And consider: with the separation of duties, what is likely to happen
in many places is that the letter is likely to go to the corporate
Legal Department who will get all flustered and paranoid, and call
managers, who will also get all flustered and paranoid.
Paying "commercial licensing fees" will do a nice job of unflustering
them, albeit at the cost of demonstrating that it isn't "free
software" in any conceivable sense of the term...
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Christopher Browne
(416) 646 3304 x124 (land)
Re: Response from MySql AB (Re: Humor me: Postgresql vs.
От
"Randolf Richardson, DevNet SysOp 29"
Дата:
[sNip]
> my personal question is how well any of this would even stand up in a
> court of law, or how would you enforce it?
The problem is finding a volunteer who's willing to test this. =D
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