Обсуждение: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

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Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
"Paul Smith"
Дата:
I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already have
the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am trying to
convince my management that it is worth going fully open source. (We already
use Java, JBoss, Eclipse etc.) But the problem I am having, and it seems I
am not alone, is the absence of Client support in postgres. I can fully
understand why the db server is Linux/Unix as this covers the majority of
servers used for enterprise applications, but I can not understand the
abscence of platform support for the client software. Where is the Mac psql,
or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall? Clients do not use Linux boxes, they
use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not have to like it, but ignoring them
doesn't make them go away.

I do not need the fancy GUI interfaces like PGExplorer, they are nice, and
handy to port my scripts and test my stored procedures, but I can't use them
to automate the creation of my database.

Sybase had iSQL for scripts and bcp for data loading. Oracle had sqlplus and
sqlldr. These are the basic client side tools required to automate the setup
and maintence of a non-trival database, and they are available on almost any
platform you care to name.

And before anybody suggests I use Cygwin, I have used Cygwin, I do not like
it (mild understatement) and nor am I prepared to learn Tcl just to run a
script that already works. Run a script to load a telnet session to run a
script to run my script? Be serious.

Please, guys. Open source is the way to go. We need to convince accountants
that it is the sensible, safe and cheap way to develop software. But that
means we have to do our jobs! When we write client-server systems, write the
clients as well as the servers.

Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql? Have you
considered doing it in Java?

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Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Josh Berkus
Дата:
Paul,

> I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already have
> the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am trying to
> convince my management that it is worth going fully open source. (We already
<snip>
> or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall? Clients do not use Linux boxes, they
> use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not have to like it, but ignoring them
> doesn't make them go away.

What makes you think that these things aren't under development, or already
exisiting?  Have you done any research at all, even asked questions on a
mailing list?

This is an Open Source project, Paul.  If you really cared, you would offer to
help, or at least ask for help, instead of posting a useless and
poorly-researched rant.   Money, code, and other forms of assistance to get
the features you want are welcome; desctructive criticism is a waste of
everyone's time.

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Robert Treat
Дата:
So the counter to this of course is "Hey Paul, we'll give you a complete
database server for free to replace your existing databases and save you
tons and tons of $$$, and all we ask in return is that you write a small
terminal program for your OS and donate it back."   That sure sounds
like a good trade to me, don't you think?

In reality though I'm pretty sure that psql and pg_dumpall do compile
under Win32 and MacOS, if not under 7.4 then certainly under 7.5, so
really these options are already available to you, they are just not in
a pretty package. (hey, let me CC one of the developers in case not...)

Now, if you want to help by compiling the client programs and wrapping
them up into a nice one click install for windows users (or mac users)
we have project space available on gborg.postgresql.org you're more than
welcome to use. Otherwise you'll have to wait for someone else to decide
they want to maintain such a thing, and no one has stepped up yet
(though it has been discussed before)

Robert Treat

On Wed, 2004-02-11 at 08:58, Paul Smith wrote:
> I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already have
> the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am trying to
> convince my management that it is worth going fully open source. (We already
> use Java, JBoss, Eclipse etc.) But the problem I am having, and it seems I
> am not alone, is the absence of Client support in postgres. I can fully
> understand why the db server is Linux/Unix as this covers the majority of
> servers used for enterprise applications, but I can not understand the
> abscence of platform support for the client software. Where is the Mac psql,
> or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall? Clients do not use Linux boxes, they
> use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not have to like it, but ignoring them
> doesn't make them go away.
>
> I do not need the fancy GUI interfaces like PGExplorer, they are nice, and
> handy to port my scripts and test my stored procedures, but I can't use them
> to automate the creation of my database.
>
> Sybase had iSQL for scripts and bcp for data loading. Oracle had sqlplus and
> sqlldr. These are the basic client side tools required to automate the setup
> and maintence of a non-trival database, and they are available on almost any
> platform you care to name.
>
> And before anybody suggests I use Cygwin, I have used Cygwin, I do not like
> it (mild understatement) and nor am I prepared to learn Tcl just to run a
> script that already works. Run a script to load a telnet session to run a
> script to run my script? Be serious.
>
> Please, guys. Open source is the way to go. We need to convince accountants
> that it is the sensible, safe and cheap way to develop software. But that
> means we have to do our jobs! When we write client-server systems, write the
> clients as well as the servers.
>
> Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql? Have you
> considered doing it in Java?
>

--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Peter Eisentraut
Дата:
Paul Smith wrote:
> Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql?

Not only is it not difficult, it has already been done.

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.4/static/install-win32.html


Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
Paul Smith wrote:
> I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already have
> the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am trying to
> convince my management that it is worth going fully open source. (We already
> use Java, JBoss, Eclipse etc.) But the problem I am having, and it seems I
> am not alone, is the absence of Client support in postgres. I can fully
> understand why the db server is Linux/Unix as this covers the majority of
> servers used for enterprise applications, but I can not understand the
> abscence of platform support for the client software. Where is the Mac psql,
> or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall? Clients do not use Linux boxes, they
> use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not have to like it, but ignoring them
> doesn't make them go away.
>
> I do not need the fancy GUI interfaces like PGExplorer, they are nice, and
> handy to port my scripts and test my stored procedures, but I can't use them
> to automate the creation of my database.
>
> Sybase had iSQL for scripts and bcp for data loading. Oracle had sqlplus and
> sqlldr. These are the basic client side tools required to automate the setup
> and maintence of a non-trival database, and they are available on almost any
> platform you care to name.
>
> And before anybody suggests I use Cygwin, I have used Cygwin, I do not like
> it (mild understatement) and nor am I prepared to learn Tcl just to run a
> script that already works. Run a script to load a telnet session to run a
> script to run my script? Be serious.
>
> Please, guys. Open source is the way to go. We need to convince accountants
> that it is the sensible, safe and cheap way to develop software. But that
> means we have to do our jobs! When we write client-server systems, write the
> clients as well as the servers.
>
> Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql? Have you
> considered doing it in Java?

We have a psql native on the win32 project page:

    http://momjian.postgresql.org/main/writings/pgsql/project

but I would recompile it myself and the other apps.  If you download
7.4.1 and install MinGW/Msys as outlined on that page, you will see that
all the client apps compile just fine and make native win32 binaries.
7.5 will have a native win32 server as well.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
"Magnus Hagander"
Дата:
>In reality though I'm pretty sure that psql and pg_dumpall do compile
>under Win32 and MacOS, if not under 7.4 then certainly under 7.5, so
>really these options are already available to you, they are just not in
>a pretty package. (hey, let me CC one of the developers in
>case not...)

It's there for win32 in HEAD. Doesn't quite work (can't find pg_dump,
need some tweaks for that). pg_dump, however, works fine (at least it
works on my test databases. But it *is* a dev version.)

//Magnus

Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
"Marc G. Fournier"
Дата:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Paul Smith wrote:

> I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already have
> the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am trying to
> convince my management that it is worth going fully open source. (We already
> use Java, JBoss, Eclipse etc.) But the problem I am having, and it seems I
> am not alone, is the absence of Client support in postgres. I can fully
> understand why the db server is Linux/Unix as this covers the majority of
> servers used for enterprise applications, but I can not understand the
> abscence of platform support for the client software. Where is the Mac psql,
> or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall? Clients do not use Linux boxes, they
> use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not have to like it, but ignoring them
> doesn't make them go away.
>
> I do not need the fancy GUI interfaces like PGExplorer, they are nice, and
> handy to port my scripts and test my stored procedures, but I can't use them
> to automate the creation of my database.
>
> Sybase had iSQL for scripts and bcp for data loading. Oracle had sqlplus and
> sqlldr. These are the basic client side tools required to automate the setup
> and maintence of a non-trival database, and they are available on almost any
> platform you care to name.
>
> And before anybody suggests I use Cygwin, I have used Cygwin, I do not like
> it (mild understatement) and nor am I prepared to learn Tcl just to run a
> script that already works. Run a script to load a telnet session to run a
> script to run my script? Be serious.
>
> Please, guys. Open source is the way to go. We need to convince accountants
> that it is the sensible, safe and cheap way to develop software. But that
> means we have to do our jobs! When we write client-server systems, write the
> clients as well as the servers.
>
> Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql? Have you
> considered doing it in Java?

Already being worked on, and we hope to have this ready for 7.5 ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Hans-Jürgen Schönig
Дата:
Paul,

There will be a complete native Windows port of PostgreSQL - this will
include the frontend stuff as well.
There are nice GUI frontends for PostgreSQL and other databases. If you
like you can use Squirrel, for instance. It supports "all" databases.
Also, pgadmin3 is nice.

    Best regards,

        Hans



Paul Smith wrote:
> I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already
> have the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am
> trying to convince my management that it is worth going fully open
> source. (We already use Java, JBoss, Eclipse etc.) But the problem I am
> having, and it seems I am not alone, is the absence of Client support in
> postgres. I can fully understand why the db server is Linux/Unix as this
> covers the majority of servers used for enterprise applications, but I
> can not understand the abscence of platform support for the client
> software. Where is the Mac psql, or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall?
> Clients do not use Linux boxes, they use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not
> have to like it, but ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
>
> I do not need the fancy GUI interfaces like PGExplorer, they are nice,
> and handy to port my scripts and test my stored procedures, but I can't
> use them to automate the creation of my database.
>
> Sybase had iSQL for scripts and bcp for data loading. Oracle had sqlplus
> and sqlldr. These are the basic client side tools required to automate
> the setup and maintence of a non-trival database, and they are available
> on almost any platform you care to name.
>
> And before anybody suggests I use Cygwin, I have used Cygwin, I do not
> like it (mild understatement) and nor am I prepared to learn Tcl just to
> run a script that already works. Run a script to load a telnet session
> to run a script to run my script? Be serious.
>
> Please, guys. Open source is the way to go. We need to convince
> accountants that it is the sensible, safe and cheap way to develop
> software. But that means we have to do our jobs! When we write
> client-server systems, write the clients as well as the servers.
>
> Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql? Have you
> considered doing it in Java?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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www.cybertec.at, www.postgresql.at, kernel.cybertec.at


Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Ned Lilly
Дата:
Robert Treat wrote:

> In reality though I'm pretty sure that psql and pg_dumpall do compile
> under Win32 and MacOS, if not under 7.4 then certainly under 7.5, so
> really these options are already available to you, they are just not in
> a pretty package.

I can attest that psql does under Windows XP - I'm looking at it right now.

Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Alex Satrapa
Дата:
Paul Smith wrote:
> Where is the Mac psql

For Mac OS X, just compile the whole kit and caboodle natively. I've got PostgreSQL 7.4.1 running on Mac OS X 10.3
(Panther)- on an iMac 333Mhz (Strawberry). It's great - even I was able to compile it straight out of the box! 

Of course, Mac OS X is a Unix-like environment, so it's nowhere near the same as Mac OS 9. Under Mac OS 9 there is no
commandline available, so one option I'd suggest is using a terminal package like NCSA Telnet or its successor
MacTelnet[1].Once you have a terminal package, use it to open a shell on the DB server or a machine that has the client
softwareavailable. 

HTH
Alex


[1] http://homepage.mac.com/kmg/mactelnet/


Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Adam Ruth
Дата:
psql works on Mac, I use it all the time.

On Feb 12, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Ned Lilly wrote:

> Robert Treat wrote:
>
>> In reality though I'm pretty sure that psql and pg_dumpall do compile
>> under Win32 and MacOS, if not under 7.4 then certainly under 7.5, so
>> really these options are already available to you, they are just not
>> in
>> a pretty package.
>
> I can attest that psql does under Windows XP - I'm looking at it right
> now.
>
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
>


Re: Rant to the guiding lights of Postgres

От
Andrew Dunstan
Дата:

There isn't a .mak file for pg_dumpall, nor for any client program except psql as far as I can see. In fact, the nightmare difficulties of keeping MS type makefiles in sync with our GNU type makefiles is one of the big reasons that we chose to adopt MinGW instead as the supported build environment for the native Windows port.

With the Win32 port there will be native Windows versions of all programs. It would certainly make sense to have a "clients only" Windows install package, as well as a "server+clients" package - although I am not working on the packaging. I have no knowledge about Mac clients, although I believe the full range of programs work on OS-X.

You might be able to get someone (e.g. me :-) ) to work for $$$ making packaged Windows binaries of other 7.4.1 client apps, assuming it is possible, if they are required before the next release. I doubt anyone will work on it otherwise - those of us interested in Windows apps are concentrating on the full Windows port.

My own solution to the problem, if I am using a non-Unix workstation, is usually to connect to a Unix box (via ssh and/or VNC) and run the required client from there. That plus Samba and/or NFS allow me to put things where I want and run them where I can.

My own opinion is that Cygwin is usually fine for client use such as this - I agree that I wouldn't run it for production server use.

cheers

andrew





Robert Treat wrote:
So the counter to this of course is "Hey Paul, we'll give you a complete
database server for free to replace your existing databases and save you
tons and tons of $$$, and all we ask in return is that you write a small
terminal program for your OS and donate it back."   That sure sounds
like a good trade to me, don't you think?

In reality though I'm pretty sure that psql and pg_dumpall do compile
under Win32 and MacOS, if not under 7.4 then certainly under 7.5, so
really these options are already available to you, they are just not in
a pretty package. (hey, let me CC one of the developers in case not...) 

Now, if you want to help by compiling the client programs and wrapping
them up into a nice one click install for windows users (or mac users)
we have project space available on gborg.postgresql.org you're more than
welcome to use. Otherwise you'll have to wait for someone else to decide
they want to maintain such a thing, and no one has stepped up yet
(though it has been discussed before)

Robert Treat

On Wed, 2004-02-11 at 08:58, Paul Smith wrote: 
I am evaluating Postgres for an existing Java application. I already have 
the app running with Oracle ($$$) and Sybase (oooold!) and I am trying to 
convince my management that it is worth going fully open source. (We already 
use Java, JBoss, Eclipse etc.) But the problem I am having, and it seems I 
am not alone, is the absence of Client support in postgres. I can fully 
understand why the db server is Linux/Unix as this covers the majority of 
servers used for enterprise applications, but I can not understand the 
abscence of platform support for the client software. Where is the Mac psql, 
or the Win XP version of pg_dumpall? Clients do not use Linux boxes, they 
use Wintel or Mac boxes. You do not have to like it, but ignoring them 
doesn't make them go away.

I do not need the fancy GUI interfaces like PGExplorer, they are nice, and 
handy to port my scripts and test my stored procedures, but I can't use them 
to automate the creation of my database.

Sybase had iSQL for scripts and bcp for data loading. Oracle had sqlplus and 
sqlldr. These are the basic client side tools required to automate the setup 
and maintence of a non-trival database, and they are available on almost any 
platform you care to name.

And before anybody suggests I use Cygwin, I have used Cygwin, I do not like 
it (mild understatement) and nor am I prepared to learn Tcl just to run a 
script that already works. Run a script to load a telnet session to run a 
script to run my script? Be serious.

Please, guys. Open source is the way to go. We need to convince accountants 
that it is the sensible, safe and cheap way to develop software. But that 
means we have to do our jobs! When we write client-server systems, write the 
clients as well as the servers.

Can it really be that difficult to write a native mode psql? Have you 
considered doing it in Java?