Re: PL/java?

Hi Gilles,

You did not read what I wrote very well. First, I said that mod_perl was
slower than "most any j2ee application". If you knew what j2ee was,
you'd know that it's generally limited to server-side internet apps
like servlets, jsps, etc... Not to mention, I do try to give perl credit
where due. If java crashes your server, that's because either the vendor
that has the jvm incorporated sucks, or your program was written poorly.
I have _never_ crashed a system or eaten up memory when everything is
properly installed. Java is NOT a cure all language. I honestly feel
that because of the way the interpreter is packaged, it can not be used
for every single situation, like C could for example. But I feel java
would be incredibly appropriate in postgresql.

I see it this way. All the people who really know Java's capabilities,
and know that it can be used without problem, will want Java in the db.
All the others who think "java is _always_ slow" or "java leaks memory"
or "java is a waste of time" won't be using the java extensions ANYWAYS.

As for perl, I probably came off a little wrong. In a reply to Randal,
I did state that I liked perl very much, and I've been developing with
it forever. Perl _is_ amazing, and there is no limit to what you can do
with it. However, in some cases, Java does things better (just like
perl does things faster than Java in certain situations). But perl has
had the "most uses" for so many years because it is easy to learn,
not truely object oriented (atleast the past few years have been that
way), does not require compiling to simplify the execution process
(i.e. fully interpreted), etc.

Expand on your "enterprise application". A true enterprise application
takes more than 3 days time to design and implement. Most "real"
enterprise applications have multiple layers of logic, etc. I don't
consider a script that queries a database for a password by 100,000
people a day to really be considered as Enterprise either.

If I was new to programming, and I started "preaching Java" right off
the bat, this conversation wouldn't be warranted. In fact, I run into
these types of Java developers who go around saying they think Java
is the best language ever, etc etc but don't really have the experience
to make that claim.

Anyways, I really didn't want this to get into "my language is better
than yours", and let's drop that immediately. My entire purpose here
was to help defend the idea of implementing Java as a PL in PGSQL.

Anyone else have any comments about the java implementation?

-Knight

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Gilles DAROLD
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:22 AM
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?


Hi Alex,

Saying that mod_perl is slower than any java apps is purely marketing
for java. An other guy told me that one day, I just bench it to show him
how java developper just talk marketing. So the result was that with small
users the performance was the same and with many user mod_perl is
really speediest. Secondly mod_perl doesn't crash the system, under Linux
using Java is a waste of time and a leak of memory ! Marketing is probably
why daniel talk about Win$

When first Java was out it was called the "Perl killer", so after many years
Perl is most uses than Java, ask you why ???

For your other words what you do in Java can be done in perl more quickly
more efficiently and with writing many less lines !

An other example is the Oracle XML/SQL Servlet that it was plan to use
in my company. After hearing too many marketing words I write the same
in perl in 3 days and extend the possibility with no limits. Now they're
using
Perl, ask you why ? This is use in the entreprise commercial application
that
I think you call entreprise level !

At this time Perl is the only really portable language over any OS.

In my opinion PL/Java is purely a waste of time but some have time so why
not !

Sorry but I can not let you say words like that, we are not newbe :-(

In your way I can tell you that before using Perl I also preach for Java :-)
But
after rewritten many time the same apps with the differents versions of Java
and the OS where it should work it ended to decide me: no more Java !

Regards

Gilles Darold

Alex Knight wrote:

> Daniel, thank you kindly for your input.
>
> However, mod_perl is absolutely slower than most any j2ee application.
> If all you are doing is keeping a session variable to count number of hits
> on a web page, then sure, perl is more than sufficient, possibly faster.
> But when you start doing anything of importance, enterprise level stuff,
> you need something scalable in ways java can go, but perl just doesn't
> seem to have _easy_ or sometimes _existant_ ways to implement.
>
> How would you go about synchronizing session data on 10 application
servers
> running mod_perl _without_ using the database to "mirror" that data in
> memory? It's not very difficult to do it in Java. (Ofcourse, any smart
> architect would use content switches generally to keep a remote user
> associated with the initial app server to reduce the necessity of such
> "replication" technologies).
>
> Not sure how you are associating me with windows, but no, all my server
> stuff is always *nix. My answer on awt and swing was in reference to
> someone else who was basing their opinion of java on awt/swing's
> capabilities. Regardless, "applets" using awt/swing can be easily run
> under Linux Mozilla or Netscape, or HotJava, etc. So you can't really
> say that's enough to assume we're talking about windows.
>
> -Knight


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster