Re: Postgresql Materialized views

FYI: I don't like being attacked for stating the truth, nor distracting 
the mailing list with these emotional discussions. However, there are 
things that need to be clarified. Feel free to kill the thread in your 
mail browser.

James Mansion wrote:
> Mark Mielke wrote:
>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>> Unless you are going to *pay* for it - you do realize that the best
>>>> way to get it implemented, would be to open up the source code, and
>>>> give it a try yourself?
> Because users possibly want to do that - use it?  Some of us have 
> better things to do than go
> through the learning curve of how the internals of a non-trivial 
> system work.  Does that really
> mean its unreasonable to voice an opinion of what would make the 
> system more useful?

It's unreasonable to demand or set a time schedule like "drop everything 
and work on materialized views in 2008 because you are wasting your time 
on other things - web developers can get 10X improvement today if you do 
this one thing". It's not unreasonable to ask for support for an idea. 
As it was, I believe I misinterpreted Jean-Michel's message as a demand 
(the words seemed demanding), whereas it may have been a plea. I was far 
more sympathetic to his second post.

>> Offensive is relative. I find it offensive when people demand things 
>> on one of the many mailing lists I read without providing anything to 
>> the community.
>>
> If your view of the community is that it should be insular and closed 
> to those who can't or won't be developers, then fine.  But taking that 
> attitude will pretty much guarantee that your system will never amount 
> to more than a hill of beans.

First point: I don't speak for the developers and it is not my system. 
Second point: This has nothing to do with insular vs non-insular 
community. Everything I stated was true - you may not like what I 
stated, but it was true. It's possible I could have adjusted a word or 
two, or added a smiley to get an affect you would find more pleasing, 
but there was nothing incorrect about what I stated. The best way to get 
a feature in is to pay for somebody to do it, or do it yourself. If you 
need reference points look to the last 20 large features that went into 
PostgreSQL. See how it progresses. Also, people have been working on 
materialized views on and off for years with differing degrees of 
success. It is *NOT* the simple problem that people make it out to be. 
(Although it seems that some people may have a good grasp of the 
problem, and may be verging on a solution)

> One of the major problems with open source as a whole is that you get 
> this 'fix it yourself or pay for it' business which provides no way to 
> spread the cost over many users who would all have something to gain - 
> but none of whom can justify footing the bill for the entire 
> development.  Most of us are in that position as users, even if we do 
> have skills that would enable us to help - we have our own issues to 
> deal with.  Buying support isn't the answer - its not support that's 
> needed, after all, so much as an ability to buy a share of influence 
> over a roadmap..

Open source is a double-edged sword for sure. This does not give any 
right to demand anything. If you want to work on something *with* other 
people, the message is "I am looking at doing tihs, but don't know how 
to start - does anybody with similar interest want to help?" This is 
*not* the message that was presented.

> Do you want ensure that only the very rich in cash or time can have 
> any influence?  You're going the right way about it with your 
> attitude, which appears deliberately user-hostile.
> What do you want?
I want people to respect the few developers we have, because I value 
them and respect them.

As for my "attitude" - words in email are hardly capable of showing 
emotion, especially something as short as I wrote. You will think what 
you wish of my words, and your decision was already made the moment you 
ignored the fact that I spoke truth and focused only on the tone.

I have an apology for Jean-Michel. I don't have an apology for people 
such as you who took this opportunity to attack me. Pot, kettle, black.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark@mielke.cc>