Re: XP Home problems

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 11:38:47PM -0800, Wim Kerkhoff wrote:
> Some people have been reporting problems with setting up PostgreSQL on
> XP Home edition. While setting up an XP Home system as a min-server /
> development station, I ran into lots of strange things. I ended up
> giving up and switching to Windows 2000.

In November 2002, there were some efforts to get to the bottom of the XP
Home issues:

    http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2002-11/msg00037.php

Unfortunately, the archives "lost" the attached remainder of this
thread.

Note that I have no access to XP Home or Pro.  So, I cannot update my
README until those with access provide the needed information.  Any help
will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [CYGWIN] Postgres Cygwin Install-as-Service on XP Pro/Home
Mini HOWTO
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:14:41 -0700
From: Kevin Wong <kevin-wong@usa.net>
Reply-To: kevin-wong@usa.net, kevin-wong@usa.net
To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
References: <3DC76EA4.7090503@usa.net> <20021107201232.GA1340@tishler.net>



Sorry about the delay in responding.

I'd be happy to help, hence my original e-mail in the first place.  :-)

Now, I'm not sure where to put my comment about the difference between
the /usr/doc/<packagename> directory and the
/usr/doc/Cygwin/<packagename> directory.

The reason I mention that is because of the incredibly lengthy time it
took for me to finally find your original readme.  I'm pretty familiar
with most Unixes, and was more than capable of finding the
/usr/doc/postgres... directory.  However, being somewhat unfamiliar with
Cygwin, I found it very difficult to actually get postgres going at all,
until I found your readme and understood the standard directory
structures for Cygwin packages.

I don't know whether it should be mentioned at all, given that this is
just a general Cygwin thing.  And if so, whether to make more explicit
note in Cygwin documentation (generally) for the benefit of all.  Maybe
I just missed the whole discussion in the general Cygwin documentation,
I don't know.  Or maybe it's not in there.

Anyways, enough on that topic.

Onto your questions/suggestions...

In all of what's to follow, I'm assuming that Cygwin and the Postgres
data directories to be used are all on NTFS volumes.  I have yet to try
any of this with Cygwin and/or Postgres on VFAT volumes mounted in
Cygwin.  I think this is an important note for the Postgres/Cygwin readme.

Now, I'm about to go into a rather lengthy treatise on something here
that might have to be explained or touched-upon in the Postgres/Cygwin
readme.

As it turns out, perhaps the greatest issue of difficutly or confusion
will be with the user/security model under XP Home vs. that in NT/W2K/XP
Pro.  Unfortunately, I don't have XP Pro on-hand to verify my comments
with 100% accuracy.  However, I do know that the XP Home model is
substantially different from the rest.

On the W32 security model "continuum", XP Home sits right in the center
with 95/98/ME + FAT/VFAT on the lowest end, and NT/W2K/XP Pro + NTFS on
the high end.

That is, XP Home's file-system-level security is pretty good, indeed
vastly better than 95/98/ME because it's been designed using NTFS from
the ground-up, but still lacks the concept of user groups found in
NT/W2K/XP Pro.

Application-level security, however, is quite another story, and is
where XP Home really shows its limitations compared to NT/W2K/XP Pro.
 Basically, XP Home improves substantially on 95/98/ME by adding truly
separate desktops/preferences and the mandatory log-in (finally, no more
hitting Cancel or ESC to bypass the login screen).  XP Home also offers
a the very-much needed feature of NT/W2K/XP Pro "Services," (it is the
same kernel, afterall).

But it's right here, in the collision between security models and
Services in XP Home that we have a problem.

First of all, in terms of the Postgres/Cygwin readme, as I mentioned in
the previous e-mail, there is also a lack of command-line
user/user-group/security management tools in XP Home, which are probably
found in XP Pro.  So, those steps must be omitted, which I see you've
done here.

Secondly, because of application-level security model limitations in XP
Home, it doesn't look like Cygipc or Postgres can be run as anything but
the filesystem owner.   Or, at least the owner of the relevant Postgres
directories.  That is, the SYSTEM user cannot be used as the account for
executing the Cygipc and Postgres services.  Nor can a "postgres" user,
created for this purpose.  The services just would refuse to run when I
tried either the SYSTEM or postgres users.

I never fully worked this out, but the problem seems related to file
ownership, even though I tried changing the owners of the various
directories.  No matter what I tried with these accounts, I would always
get "FATAL 1:  cannot open /usr/share/postgresql/data/PG_VERSION:
Permission denied" errors in in /var/log/postmaster.log.

Basically, things only seemed to work when the account for services
execution was the same as the filesystem owner -- and that account must
be an "administrative" user, not a "guest."  When I changed the services
to my own user account, the one used to install Cygwin and postgres to
begin with,  everything worked fine.

So, with all of this in mind...

We should premise all of your blended steps with the direction that the
user launch a Cygwin shell, after logging-in to XP Home as the user
under which Cygwin and Postgres were originally installed.  And, very
importantly, that user must be an "administrative" user.  Again, this is
all because of the security model limitations in XP Home.

Also, we can't forget to mention the need to obtain/install Cyg-ipc, either.

Now, assuming the user does login to XP Home as the Cygwin/Postgres
installer, and is an administrative user, and has installed Cyg-ipc,
let's look at each of your revised steps...

>1. Install the cygipc ipc-daemon as a NT service:
>
>    $ ipc-daemon --install-as-service
>
>
>
Yep.  Works.  This uses the SYSTEM user as the login for the service.
 That actually works just fine.  To be strictly consistent, we could
instruct the user to change the account in the Services Control Panel
applet to match the user in the next step, but it's probably unnecessary.

>2. Install postmaster as a NT service:
>
>    $ cygrunsrv --install postmaster --path /usr/bin/postmaster --args "-D /usr/share/postgresql/data -i" --dep
ipc-daemon--termsig INT --shutdown 
>
I would change --install postmaster to read --install "Cygwin Postgres"
<note double quotes>, to keep the display of the Cyg-ipc and Postgres
entries in the Services Control Panel applet grouped together.

We also must add a -- user <Cygwin installer user> (need double quotes
if there are spaces in the user name) and a --password <Cygwin installer
user's password> to the command.  (Well, we don't strictly have to do
the --password switch, as the user will be prompted for their password
if it's not provided, we'd just have to explain this if we omit the
password switch).

If you don't use the "--user" switch, you'll be in for a world of
frustration and confusing error messages.  Yes, that's even though
theoretically the SYSTEM user should have root-like privelege.  Well,
for some damn reason, SYSTEM just doesn't work under XP Home for this
step.  I think it's some other XP Home filesystem/app-level security
limitation, and is not found in XP Pro.

>3. Create the PostgreSQL data directory:
>
>    $ mkdir /usr/share/postgresql/data
>
>4. Start the cygipc ipc-daemon:
>
>    $ net start ipc-daemon # [1]
>
>5. Initialize PostgreSQL
>
>    $ initdb -D /usr/share/postgresql/data
>
>6. Start postmaster:
>
>    $ net start postmaster # [1]
>
>7. Connect to PostgreSQL:
>
>    $ psql template1
>
>[1] Cygwin's bin directory (e.g., C:\Cygwin\bin) must be added to the
>    Windows NT/2000/XP's system PATH and the machine rebooted for the
>    SCM to find cygwin1.dll.
>
>
>

Everything above is just fine.  I would also suggest adding
C:\Cygwin\sbin, and C:\Cygwin\usr\sbin to the PATH in note [1].

The only point of confusion that I had when reading the file was the [x]
numbers, only afterwards realizing that you were indicating a reference
to the notes below.  I suggest making a quick note at the top of the
readme for clarity.

>Note that the ipc-daemon and postmaster services are installed to run
>under whatever user account XP Home uses for services.
>

Obviously, this isn't quite the case anymore, and can probably be excluded.


Phew.  That was long, but hopefully, complete.

-Kev.

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Kevin,

On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 07:40:05PM -0700, Kevin Wong wrote:
> Sorry about the delay in responding.

No problem.

> I'd be happy to help, hence my original e-mail in the first place.
> :-)

Thanks for your offer to help it is much appreciated.

> Now, I'm not sure where to put my comment about the difference between
> the /usr /doc/<packagename> directory and the
> /usr/doc/Cygwin/<packagename> directory.
>
> [snip]
>
> Anyways, enough on that topic.

I feel your pain, but I did try to help by adding the following to
/usr/doc/postgresql-7.2.2/FAQ_MSWIN:

    A pre-built PostgreSQL is part of the standard Cygwin distribution
    and is installed by Cygwin's setup.exe. You are encouraged to use
    this version unless it does not meet your needs. Please read the
    README file, /usr/doc/Cygwin/postgresql-${version}.README, where
    "${version}" is the version (e.g., 7.2).

Unfortunately, the Cygwin port was named "MSWIN" and not "Cygwin".
Maybe this can (or should) be changed when the native Win32 PostgreSQL
port is release?

> In all of what's to follow, I'm assuming that Cygwin and the Postgres
> data directories to be used are all on NTFS volumes.  I have yet to
> try any of this with Cygwin and/or Postgres on VFAT volumes mounted in
> Cygwin.  I think this is an important note for the Postgres/Cygwin
> readme.

Agreed -- I will add this as an issue to my README.

Note that I asked multiple times for Windows 9x/Me users to run the
regression test and report their results to the list.  Unfortunately, I
have not gotten any takers.

Are there any Windows 9x/Me users willing to run the regression test?

> Unfortunately, I don't have XP Pro on-hand to verify my comments with
> 100% accuracy.

I agree that XP Pro should be the same as NT/2000.  Are there any XP Pro
users that can confirm or deny this?

> First of all, in terms of the Postgres/Cygwin readme, as I mentioned
> in the previous e-mail, there is also a lack of command-line
> user/user-group/security management tools in XP Home, which are
> probably found in XP Pro.  So, those steps must be omitted, which I
> see you've done here.

In XP Home, is there a way to create users via the GUI?

> Secondly, because of application-level security model limitations in
> XP Home, it doesn't look like Cygipc or Postgres can be run as
> anything but the filesystem owner.

What do you mean by "filesystem owner?"  The user that owns the files?

> Or, at least the owner of the relevant Postgres directories.  That is,
> the SYSTEM user cannot be used as the account for executing the Cygipc
> and Postgres services.

Are you sure about cygipc?  Under NT/2000, cygipc can run just fine
under SYSTEM.  You even contradict this below.

> Nor can a "postgres" user, created for this purpose.  The services
> just would refuse to run when I tried either the SYSTEM or postgres
> users.

Why is a "postgres" user different than a "Cygwin installer user" in this
context?

> I never fully worked this out, ...
> [snip]

Please try again.  If XP Home supports multiple users, then I really
would like to use the standard "postgres" user account to be consistent
will all other PostgreSQL installations.

> Basically, things only seemed to work when the account for services
> execution was the same as the filesystem owner -- and that account
> must be an "administrative" user, not a "guest."

What is an XP Home "administrative" user?  How does one create such a
user or modify an existing user to become one?  Can one make the
"postgres" user an "administrative" user?

> We should premise all of your blended steps with the direction that
> the user launch a Cygwin shell, after logging-in to XP Home as the
> user under which Cygwin and Postgres were originally installed.  And,
> very importantly, that user must be an "administrative" user.  Again,
> this is all because of the security model limitations in XP Home.

I will add the above, but only if we can't get the "postgres" user to
work.

> Also, we can't forget to mention the need to obtain/install Cyg-ipc,
> either.

The above is already in my README.

> Now, assuming the user does login to XP Home as the Cygwin/Postgres
> installer, and is an administrative user, and has installed Cyg-ipc,
> let's look at each of your revised steps...
>
>     1. Install the cygipc ipc-daemon as a NT service:
>
>         $ ipc-daemon --install-as-service
>
> Yep.  Works.  This uses the SYSTEM user as the login for the service.
> That actually works just fine.  To be strictly consistent, we could
> instruct the user to change the account in the Services Control Panel
> applet to match the user in the next step, but it's probably
> unnecessary.

I recommend leaving this as is to be consistent with NT/2000/XP Pro.

>     2. Install postmaster as a NT service:
>
>         $ cygrunsrv --install postmaster --path /usr/bin/postmaster
>         --args "-D /usr/share/postgresql/data -i" --dep ipc-daemon
>         --termsig INT --shutdown
>
> I would change --install postmaster to read --install "Cygwin
> Postgres" <note double quotes>, to keep the display of the Cyg-ipc and
> Postgres entries in the Services Control Panel applet grouped
> together.

The above is a stylistic preference and not a functional one.  I will
leave it as is.  Of course, users can choose their preferred service
name.

> We also must add a -- user <Cygwin installer user> (need double quotes
> if there are spaces in the user name) ...
> [snip]

I would really like to determine whether or not a "postgres" user can be
used.  If not, then we will go with your "Cygwin installer user"
suggestion.

>     3. Create the PostgreSQL data directory:
>
>         $ mkdir /usr/share/postgresql/data
>
>     4. Start the cygipc ipc-daemon:
>
>         $ net start ipc-daemon # [1]
>
>     5. Initialize PostgreSQL
>
>         $ initdb -D /usr/share/postgresql/data
>
>     6. Start postmaster:
>
>         $ net start postmaster # [1]
>
>     7. Connect to PostgreSQL:
>
>         $ psql template1
>
>     [1] Cygwin's bin directory (e.g., C:\Cygwin\bin) must be added to
>     the Windows NT/2000/XP's system PATH and the machine rebooted for
>     the SCM to find cygwin1.dll.
>
> Everything above is just fine.

Good.

> I would also suggest adding C:\Cygwin\sbin, and C:\Cygwin\usr\sbin to
> the PATH in note [1].

Why?  I don't see the need.

> The only point of confusion that I had when reading the file was the
> [x] numbers, only afterwards realizing that you were indicating a
> reference to the notes below.  I suggest making a quick note at the
> top of the readme for clarity.

Agreed.  The footnotes were added as an afterthought.  Unfortunately, my
PostgreSQL README had become harder to understand than I would like.
Sigh...

>     Note that the ipc-daemon and postmaster services are installed to
>     run under whatever user account XP Home uses for services.
>
> Obviously, this isn't quite the case anymore, and can probably be
> excluded.

Agreed.

> Phew.  That was long, but hopefully, complete.

Wow!  Thanks for the above.  I really appreciate your time and the very
valuable information provided.

BTW, are you willing to run the regression test under XP Home and report
the results to the list?  I can help you set it up, if you are
interested.

Thanks,
Jason

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Jason Tishler wrote:

>I feel your pain, but I did try to help by adding the following to
>/usr/doc/postgresql-7.2.2/FAQ_MSWIN:
>
>    A pre-built PostgreSQL is part of the standard Cygwin distribution
>    and is installed by Cygwin's setup.exe. You are encouraged to use
>    this version unless it does not meet your needs. Please read the
>    README file, /usr/doc/Cygwin/postgresql-${version}.README, where
>    "${version}" is the version (e.g., 7.2).
>
>Unfortunately, the Cygwin port was named "MSWIN" and not "Cygwin".
>Maybe this can (or should) be changed when the native Win32 PostgreSQL
>port is release?
>
>

Gotcha.

You know?  You'd think that your mention in the FAQ_MSWIN would be
enough.  For some reason, hitting the readme we're working on here just
totally elluded me for days.

Maybe we need some flashing neon lights pointing people to the readme,
especially given the fact that cygipc is so critical and is mentioned
only here.

And agreed, the Cygwin port should be distinguised from the native Win32
port, to be symantically correct.  Also, just to avoid confusion.

>>First of all, in terms of the Postgres/Cygwin readme, as I mentioned
>>in the previous e-mail, there is also a lack of command-line
>>user/user-group/security management tools in XP Home, which are
>>probably found in XP Pro.  So, those steps must be omitted, which I
>>see you've done here.
>>
>>
>
>In XP Home, is there a way to create users via the GUI?
>
>

Yes, you can create users via the GUI.  However, as you'll note from my
comments later, the creation of users isn't the issue.  Something
related for file and directory permissions is.

FYI, to get to the user creation/administration GUI in XP Home:  Start
Menu -> Settings -> Control Panel -> User Accounts.

>
>
>>Secondly, because of application-level security model limitations in
>>XP Home, it doesn't look like Cygipc or Postgres can be run as
>>anything but the filesystem owner.
>>
>>
>
>What do you mean by "filesystem owner?"  The user that owns the files?
>
>

By "filesystem owner" I mean the user that owns the files/directories
used by postgres.

Since most users (probably) install the postgres package at the time
they install Cygwin, the files/directories used by postgres are owned by
the user account used to run the Cygwin installer -- what I call "Cygwin
installer user".


>>Or, at least the owner of the relevant Postgres directories.  That is,
>>the SYSTEM user cannot be used as the account for executing the Cygipc
>>and Postgres services.
>>
>>
>
>Are you sure about cygipc?  Under NT/2000, cygipc can run just fine
>under SYSTEM.  You even contradict this below.
>

Cygipc actually runs fine under SYSTEM.

This was actually a bit of a confusing reference to some problems I had
when I was using shell scripts to launch both cygipc and postgres.
 Disregard mention of cygipc being unable to run under SYSTEM.

>>Nor can a "postgres" user, created for this purpose.  The services
>>just would refuse to run when I tried either the SYSTEM or postgres
>>users.
>>
>>
>
>Why is a "postgres" user different than a "Cygwin installer user" in this
>context?
>
>
The best theory I can come up with is file/directory ownership.  That
is, an XP user simply created and named as "postgres" user won't have
ownership of the postgres files/directories.  Therefore, it will have
countless problems when trying to execute.  Nor does SYSTEM work, even
though it should theoretically have root-like access to the filesystem.

I've even attemped recursive "chown"'s of the various directories to the
postgres user.  Perhaps I simply missed a few files/directories, and
therefore postgres couldn't read or write to something it needed to.  I
don't know.

>
>
>>I never fully worked this out, ...
>>[snip]
>>
>>
>
>Please try again.  If XP Home supports multiple users, then I really
>would like to use the standard "postgres" user account to be consistent
>will all other PostgreSQL installations.
>
>

I'll try once again.  Using both a "postgres" user and as SYSTEM.

>>Basically, things only seemed to work when the account for services
>>execution was the same as the filesystem owner -- and that account
>>must be an "administrative" user, not a "guest."
>>
>>
>
>What is an XP Home "administrative" user?  How does one create such a
>user or modify an existing user to become one?  Can one make the
>"postgres" user an "administrative" user?
>
>

In XP Home, there are (exactly) 2 different types of users:
 Administrative and Guest.  When you create a user, you can declare it
one or the other.  I think you can change existing users between the 2
types, as well.

In all of my attempts, I used only "Administrative" users.  SYSTEM, at
least in my understanding, is a super-Administrative user with no limits
to filesystem or application-execution rights.

>>We should premise all of your blended steps with the direction that
>>the user launch a Cygwin shell, after logging-in to XP Home as the
>>user under which Cygwin and Postgres were originally installed.  And,
>>very importantly, that user must be an "administrative" user.  Again,
>>this is all because of the security model limitations in XP Home.
>>
>>
>
>I will add the above, but only if we can't get the "postgres" user to
>work.
>
>
Gotcha.

>>Also, we can't forget to mention the need to obtain/install Cyg-ipc,
>>either.
>>
>>
>The above is already in my README.
>

Yep.  Just highlighting it, as it seems to be a step that is very easily
forgotten/overlooked.

Especially when one makes many attempts to launch the various postgres
executables after fiddling with config files/etc.  Rebooting, (this IS
Windows, afterall), and whatever.  It's also very easy to overlook
launching ipc-daemon each time.

>>Now, assuming the user does login to XP Home as the Cygwin/Postgres
>>installer, and is an administrative user, and has installed Cyg-ipc,
>>let's look at each of your revised steps...
>>
>>    1. Install the cygipc ipc-daemon as a NT service:
>>
>>        $ ipc-daemon --install-as-service
>>
>>Yep.  Works.  This uses the SYSTEM user as the login for the service.
>>That actually works just fine.  To be strictly consistent, we could
>>instruct the user to change the account in the Services Control Panel
>>applet to match the user in the next step, but it's probably
>>unnecessary.
>>
>>
>
>I recommend leaving this as is to be consistent with NT/2000/XP Pro.
>
>

Works for me.  Indeed, that's exactly how I have mine set-up right now.

>
>
>>    2. Install postmaster as a NT service:
>>
>>        $ cygrunsrv --install postmaster --path /usr/bin/postmaster
>>        --args "-D /usr/share/postgresql/data -i" --dep ipc-daemon
>>        --termsig INT --shutdown
>>
>>I would change --install postmaster to read --install "Cygwin
>>Postgres" <note double quotes>, to keep the display of the Cyg-ipc and
>>Postgres entries in the Services Control Panel applet grouped
>>together.
>>
>>
>
>The above is a stylistic preference and not a functional one.  I will
>leave it as is.  Of course, users can choose their preferred service
>name.
>
>

Granted.

>>We also must add a -- user <Cygwin installer user> (need double quotes
>>if there are spaces in the user name) ...
>>[snip]
>>
>>
>
>I would really like to determine whether or not a "postgres" user can be
>used.  If not, then we will go with your "Cygwin installer user"
>suggestion.
>
>

Gotcha.  Again, I'll give it another shot.  Of course, if the "postgres"
user IS the "Cygwin installer user" then there'd definitely be no
problem.  Though, I find it highly unlikely that this would be the case
in most instances.

>>I would also suggest adding C:\Cygwin\sbin, and C:\Cygwin\usr\sbin to
>>the PATH in note [1].
>>
>>
>
>Why?  I don't see the need.
>
>

Sorry.  Got this readme confused with something I was working on with
"sshd".

I really should stop writing these things up at 4 in the morning.  :-)


>>Phew.  That was long, but hopefully, complete.
>>
>>
>
>Wow!  Thanks for the above.  I really appreciate your time and the very
>valuable information provided.
>
>BTW, are you willing to run the regression test under XP Home and report
>the results to the list?  I can help you set it up, if you are
>interested.
>
>

I'd be glad to help.  Let's get on it.

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Kevin,

On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 10:41:06AM -0700, Kevin Wong wrote:
>     Why is a "postgres" user different than a "Cygwin installer user"
>     in this context?
>
> The best theory I can come up with is file/directory ownership.  That
> is, an XP user simply created and named as "postgres" user won't have
> ownership of the postgres files/directories.  Therefore, it will have
> countless problems when trying to execute.  Nor does SYSTEM work, even
> though it should theoretically have root-like access to the
> filesystem.
>
> I've even attemped recursive "chown"'s of the various directories to
> the postgres user.  Perhaps I simply missed a few files/directories,
> and therefore postgres couldn't read or write to something it needed
> to.  I don't know.
>
> [snip]
>
>     I would really like to determine whether or not a "postgres" user
>     can be used.  If not, then we will go with your "Cygwin installer
>     user" suggestion.
>
> Gotcha.  Again, I'll give it another shot.  Of course, if the
> "postgres" user IS the "Cygwin installer user" then there'd definitely
> be no problem.  Though, I find it highly unlikely that this would be
> the case in most instances.

My suggestion is to login as "postgres" and then run initdb.  By
"login", I mean at the Windows login dialog or use ssh to simulate su.
Hopefully, running initdb as "postgres" will solve your permissions
problem.

Jason

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