Обсуждение: Updates for PostgreSQL.org one-click installer download pages

On 06/29/2016 07:17 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> Hi Marc,
>
>> On Jun 29, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Marc Linster @ EDB
>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is a patch to update the descriptions for the EDB one-click
>> installers for OSX, Windows and Linux.
>> <edboneclickpatch.diff>
>
> I reviewed the page and it looks okay from a technical perspective.  I
> will wait a day to see if anyone has a comment on the language, and if
> not, will apply it.

-1.

I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update. That in 
itself isn't a bad thing but it will create inconsistencies in the site. 
For example on:

https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/

It will now say:

"Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"

Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"

The problem here is, we are going to get into a battle of the marketers 
to continue to distinguish themselves against each other. That is not 
useful for our community.

Instead I suggest a patch that does something like this (consistently):


MacOS X:

Interactive Graphical Installers:
* EnterpriseDB  "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
* BigSQL
  "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"

Other distributions:
* postgres.app

Other packagers (I don't like this name but it is the first thing that 
popped in my head):
* Homebrew* Fink    

etc....









-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

> On 29 Jun 2016, at 17:44, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/29/2016 07:17 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>> Hi Marc,
>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Marc Linster @ EDB
>>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a patch to update the descriptions for the EDB one-click
>>> installers for OSX, Windows and Linux.
>>> <edboneclickpatch.diff>
>>
>> I reviewed the page and it looks okay from a technical perspective.  I
>> will wait a day to see if anyone has a comment on the language, and if
>> not, will apply it.
>
> -1.
>
> I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update. That in itself isn't a bad thing but it will create
inconsistenciesin the site. For example on: 
>
> https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/
>
> It will now say:
>
> "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"
>
> Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"

Right and with good reason - it's more accurate. The installers can run in either graphical or text modes interactively
(andsilent mode in fact). 

Consistency is good - except when it is inaccurate. That is not good for the community.

On 06/29/2016 09:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:

>> I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update. That in itself isn't a bad thing but it will create
inconsistenciesin the site. For example on:
 
>>
>> https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/
>>
>> It will now say:
>>
>> "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"
>>
>> Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"
>
> Right and with good reason - it's more accurate. The installers can run in either graphical or text modes
interactively(and silent mode in fact).
 
>
> Consistency is good - except when it is inaccurate. That is not good for the community.
>

Agreed so let's do this:

Instead I suggest a patch that does something like this (consistently):

MacOS X:

Third Party distributions:
    * EnterpriseDB
      "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
    * BigSQL
      "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"

Other distributions:
    * postgres.app

Other packagers (I don't like this name but it is the first thing that 
popped in my head):
    * Homebrew
    * Fink



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Rader, David <davidr@openscg.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 29 Jun 2016, at 17:44, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 06/29/2016 07:17 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>> >> Hi Marc,
>> >>
>> >>> On Jun 29, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Marc Linster @ EDB
>> >>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> This is a patch to update the descriptions for the EDB one-click
>> >>> installers for OSX, Windows and Linux.
>> >>> <edboneclickpatch.diff>
>> >>
>> >> I reviewed the page and it looks okay from a technical perspective.  I
>> >> will wait a day to see if anyone has a comment on the language, and if
>> >> not, will apply it.
>> >
>> > -1.
>> >
>> > I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update. That in
>> > itself isn't a bad thing but it will create inconsistencies in the site. For
>> > example on:
>> >
>> > https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/
>> >
>> > It will now say:
>> >
>> > "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"
>> >
>> > Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"
>>
>> Right and with good reason - it's more accurate. The installers can run in
>> either graphical or text modes interactively (and silent mode in fact).
>>
>> Consistency is good - except when it is inaccurate. That is not good for
>> the community.
>>
>
> The EDB Windows Installer that you can download today does not support text
> mode. If you try to run with --mode text you get a nice GUI error pop-up
> telling you the allowed modes do not include text.
>
> Is there a new version planned that will allow text mode on Windows, or does
> the description require changing to be more accurate?

Good point, you're correct that text mode only applies to the Linux
and Mac versions so the Windows page should reflect that.

Marc; can you fix that please?

I would still suggest keeping the title the same though, for
consistency with the other platforms.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 06/29/2016 09:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>
>>> I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update. That in
>>> itself isn't a bad thing but it will create inconsistencies in the site. For
>>> example on:
>>>
>>> https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/
>>>
>>> It will now say:
>>>
>>> "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"
>>>
>>> Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"
>>
>>
>> Right and with good reason - it's more accurate. The installers can run in
>> either graphical or text modes interactively (and silent mode in fact).
>>
>> Consistency is good - except when it is inaccurate. That is not good for
>> the community.
>>
>
> Agreed so let's do this:
>
> Instead I suggest a patch that does something like this (consistently):
>
> MacOS X:
>
> Third Party distributions:
>
>     * EnterpriseDB
>
>       "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
>
>     * BigSQL
>
>       "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
>
> Other distributions:
>
>     * postgres.app
>
> Other packagers (I don't like this name but it is the first thing that
> popped in my head):
>
>     * Homebrew
>
>     * Fink

Why? They're all 3rd party packages - plus you have inconsistency then
in that some entries are titled for their provider, whilst others are
titled for what they are.

The way it's currently titled makes it quick and easy to decide which
paragraph(s) you want to read more of. The way you propose is more
likely to require users to read more.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Hello,

The more I look at this, the more of a train wreck it is. We have:

https://www.postgresql.org/download/linux/

Improperly designates distributions vs "other" when the "other" also 
offers native distribution (rpm for example). It says (for example):

Linux:
Red Hat family Linux (including CentOS/Fedora/Scientific/Oracle variants)Debian GNU/Linux and derivativesUbuntu Linux
andderivativesSuSE and OpenSuSEOther Linux
 

But "Other" is also available in RPM or Deb. This should really be:

Then you click, "Other" and BigSQL isn't listed but we list RedHat 
etc... again.

I have already said my piece on:

https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/

In fact the only page that isn't convoluted, redundant and badly 
organized is the Windows page.

I strongly suggest that we need to look at this in a much more holistic 
manner, come up with a unified presentation and proper, succinct wording.

Perhaps:

https://www.postgresql.org/download/

* BSD* FreeBSDPostgreSQL packages are available for FreeBSD from the FreeBSD Ports 
and Packages Collection. Please see the ports documentation for 
information on how to install ports.
A list of PostgreSQL packages can be found using the Ports Search tool 
on the FreeBSD website.
      * OpenBSD
PostgreSQL packages are available for OpenBSD from the OpenBSD Ports 
and Packages Collection. Please see the ports documentation for 
information on how to install ports.


* Linux* Red Hat family Linux
PGDG repository of packages for RHEL including 
CentOS/Fedora/Scientific/Oracle variants)
* Debian GNU/Linux and derivativesPGDG repository and instructions for packages for Debian* Ubuntu Linux and
derivativesPGDGrepository and instructions for Ubuntu* SUSE and openSUSEDistribution repository and instructions for
SUSEand openSUSE
 
* Universal packages:* DEB* RPM* Windows* MacOSX

* Mac OS XUniversal packages as well third party distributions for MacOSX
* Solaris
* Windows

I know this needs work but I think you can see where I am going with it. 
A more generalized, less marketing lingo, directly informational listing 
that provide more accurate descriptions with a specific bent toward PGDG 
work.

I am willing to work up some patches in this regard if requested.

Sincerely,

JD










-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 06/29/2016 10:46 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2016 09:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:

>>      * Homebrew
>>
>>      * Fink
>
> Why? They're all 3rd party packages - plus you have inconsistency then
> in that some entries are titled for their provider, whilst others are
> titled for what they are.

My thought process goes beyond just MacOSX. I was trying to work toward 
a unified description for the entire download area (which is kind of a 
mess right now). It is just the MacOSX that I honed in on.

>
> The way it's currently titled makes it quick and easy to decide which
> paragraph(s) you want to read more of. The way you propose is more
> likely to require users to read more.

I am not sure what you mean here.

Sincerely,

JD



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 06/29/2016 10:46 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 06/29/2016 09:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>>>      * Homebrew
>>>
>>>      * Fink
>>
>>
>> Why? They're all 3rd party packages - plus you have inconsistency then
>> in that some entries are titled for their provider, whilst others are
>> titled for what they are.
>
>
> My thought process goes beyond just MacOSX. I was trying to work toward a
> unified description for the entire download area (which is kind of a mess
> right now). It is just the MacOSX that I honed in on.
>
>>
>> The way it's currently titled makes it quick and easy to decide which
>> paragraph(s) you want to read more of. The way you propose is more
>> likely to require users to read more.
>
>
> I am not sure what you mean here.

By changing "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB" to "EnterpriseDB",
you do 2 things:

1) Introduce inconsistency by naming some entries for their author,
and others by their type (e.g. "Homebrew")

2) Force users to read the "named by vendor" sections in more depth to
see if their offering is of the type the user is looking for.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The more I look at this, the more of a train wreck it is. We have:
>
> https://www.postgresql.org/download/linux/
>
> Improperly designates distributions vs "other" when the "other" also offers
> native distribution (rpm for example). It says (for example):
>
> Linux:
>
>         Red Hat family Linux (including CentOS/Fedora/Scientific/Oracle
> variants)
>         Debian GNU/Linux and derivatives
>         Ubuntu Linux and derivatives
>         SuSE and OpenSuSE
>         Other Linux
>
> But "Other" is also available in RPM or Deb. This should really be:
>
> Then you click, "Other" and BigSQL isn't listed but we list RedHat etc...
> again.

BigSQL isn't there because they haven't asked to be.

The other links are at the top because we prefer to encourage people
to use native packages unless they really want to. That (and in fact,
the current organisation in general) was done after literally months
of discussion, experimentation and monitoring of questions to places
like webmaster@.

This cannot, and should not be re-organised on a whim, given that we
managed to get the "what the heck do I download" questions down to
basically zero after a lot of effort many years ago.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 06/29/2016 11:05 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2016 10:46 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 06/29/2016 09:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:

>> I am not sure what you mean here.
>
> By changing "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB" to "EnterpriseDB",
> you do 2 things:

That isn't what I did. I grouped two, almost identical VENDOR 
distributions into a common download area. I also removed redundancy in 
the listing versus what it is now.

Proposed:

MacOS X:

Interactive Graphical Installers:
    * EnterpriseDB
      "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
    * BigSQL
      "Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"


I would be even happier if it just said:

MacOS X:

Vendor Installers:
* EnterpriseDB"Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
* BigSQL"Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"

Community Installers:
* Homebrew"Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
* Macports"Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"
* Postgres.app"Insert short, not more than 150 words (?) description"

I would be bordering, "I am in the woods not having yet another 
argument on a mailing list" if we put community installers first.

>
> 1) Introduce inconsistency by naming some entries for their author,
> and others by their type (e.g. "Homebrew")

No. I named some entries by their vendor (I am being pedantic for a 
reason). Homebrew isn't a vendor.

>
> 2) Force users to read the "named by vendor" sections in more depth to
> see if their offering is of the type the user is looking for.

Which is certainly better than what we have now.

Now if there is a complaint with how we represent the community stuff 
(like Homebrew) then let's do what we should be doing and put them first 
anyway.

Sincerely,

JD







-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 06/29/2016 11:09 AM, Dave Page wrote:

>
> This cannot, and should not be re-organised on a whim, given that we
> managed to get the "what the heck do I download" questions down to
> basically zero after a lot of effort many years ago.
>

I am not in anyway suggesting this should be on whim, if I was I would 
just submit patches without any community discussion first.

JD


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 06/29/2016 11:05 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 06/29/2016 10:46 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06/29/2016 09:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>>> I am not sure what you mean here.
>>
>>
>> By changing "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB" to "EnterpriseDB",
>> you do 2 things:
>
>
> That isn't what I did. I grouped two, almost identical VENDOR distributions
> into a common download area. I also removed redundancy in the listing versus
> what it is now.
>
> Proposed:
>
> MacOS X:
>
> Interactive Graphical Installers:

Ahh, I overlooked that line. As I mentioned originally though, Marc
changed that title because it is misleading in our case - on Linux and
Mac there are text based and silent installation modes, and Windows
supports silent mode as well.

>> 1) Introduce inconsistency by naming some entries for their author,
>> and others by their type (e.g. "Homebrew")
>
>
> No. I named some entries by their vendor (I am being pedantic for a reason).
> Homebrew isn't a vendor.

Exactly my point. It's inconsistent, which was what you said you were
trying to avoid.

>> 2) Force users to read the "named by vendor" sections in more depth to
>> see if their offering is of the type the user is looking for.
>
>
> Which is certainly better than what we have now.
>
> Now if there is a complaint with how we represent the community stuff (like
> Homebrew) then let's do what we should be doing and put them first anyway.

We don't put them first for a very good reason (one that was discussed
at length over very long periods of time) - we push the "easiest to
get started" options to the top, to minimise user confusion - a choice
that quickly paid off as the number of questions to webmaster@ and
other places dropped off after we implemented the current layout.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 06/29/2016 11:09 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>
>>
>> This cannot, and should not be re-organised on a whim, given that we
>> managed to get the "what the heck do I download" questions down to
>> basically zero after a lot of effort many years ago.
>>
>
> I am not in anyway suggesting this should be on whim, if I was I would just
> submit patches without any community discussion first.

I do not believe even discussing patches is enough in this case, given
the time, effort and proven effect the current layout had.

I don't disagree that it can be improved further - but I strongly feel
that any major changes to structure need to be *very* carefully
considered, and proven (A/B testing perhaps).

That is an aside to this patch though, which merely updates an old
description that's been in place for years. With the exception of the
correction I've asked Marc to make, do you believe there is any
legitimate reason why the current pages should not be updated as
requested (without applying any new rules that we may or may not agree
on at some point in the future)?

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 06/29/2016 11:25 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2016 11:05 AM, Dave Page wrote:

>> Which is certainly better than what we have now.
>>
>> Now if there is a complaint with how we represent the community stuff (like
>> Homebrew) then let's do what we should be doing and put them first anyway.
>
> We don't put them first for a very good reason (one that was discussed
> at length over very long periods of time) - we push the "easiest to
> get started" options to the top, to minimise user confusion - a choice
> that quickly paid off as the number of questions to webmaster@ and
> other places dropped off after we implemented the current layout.

Yeah and I am pretty fine with that. I am more interested in the overall 
consistency and cleanup as a whole.

Sincerely,

JD



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 06/29/2016 11:30 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2016 11:09 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>>

> That is an aside to this patch though, which merely updates an old
> description that's been in place for years. With the exception of the
> correction I've asked Marc to make, do you believe there is any
> legitimate reason why the current pages should not be updated as
> requested (without applying any new rules that we may or may not agree
> on at some point in the future)?
>

You got me in a box here: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/8143317

JD

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Scott Mead <scottm@openscg.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 29 Jun 2016, at 17:44, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 06/29/2016 07:17 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>> >> Hi Marc,
>> >>
>> >>> On Jun 29, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Marc Linster @ EDB
>> >>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> This is a patch to update the descriptions for the EDB one-click
>> >>> installers for OSX, Windows and Linux.
>> >>> <edboneclickpatch.diff>
>> >>
>> >> I reviewed the page and it looks okay from a technical perspective.  I
>> >> will wait a day to see if anyone has a comment on the language, and if
>> >> not, will apply it.
>> >
>> > -1.
>> >
>> > I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update.
>>
>> That in itself isn't a bad thing but it will create inconsistencies in the
>> site. For example on:
>> >
>> > https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/
>> >
>> > It will now say:
>> >
>> > "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"
>> >
>> > Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"
>>
>> Right and with good reason - it's more accurate. The installers can run in
>> either graphical or text modes interactively (and silent mode in fact).
>
>
> Is there specific, new functionality targeted at:
>
> "
>
> server environments including bare metal,
>
> virtual environments, and public, private, and hybrid clouds.
>
> "

Nothing particularly new, but there is support for silent and
scripted/parameterised installations that can be used in such
environments, for example via cloud-init.

As I pointed out though, these descriptions haven't been updated in
years. We just want to refresh them with more informative and up to
date information.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

Hi folks,

There is one more Windows installer built by Postgres Pro:

http://postgrespro.com/windows

Why not mention it at this page 
https://www.postgresql.org/download/windows/ ?



29.06.2016 22:09, Dave Page пишет:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Scott Mead <scottm@openscg.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 29 Jun 2016, at 17:44, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 06/29/2016 07:17 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>>>>> Hi Marc,
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Marc Linster @ EDB
>>>>>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a patch to update the descriptions for the EDB one-click
>>>>>> installers for OSX, Windows and Linux.
>>>>>> <edboneclickpatch.diff>
>>>>> I reviewed the page and it looks okay from a technical perspective.  I
>>>>> will wait a day to see if anyone has a comment on the language, and if
>>>>> not, will apply it.
>>>> -1.
>>>>
>>>> I read through this and this is essentially a marketing update.
>>> That in itself isn't a bad thing but it will create inconsistencies in the
>>> site. For example on:
>>>> https://www.postgresql.org/download/macosx/
>>>>
>>>> It will now say:
>>>>
>>>> "Interactive installer by EnterpriseDB"
>>>>
>>>> Instead of the site/vendor consistent "Graphical Installer"
>>> Right and with good reason - it's more accurate. The installers can run in
>>> either graphical or text modes interactively (and silent mode in fact).
>>
>> Is there specific, new functionality targeted at:
>>
>> "
>>
>> server environments including bare metal,
>>
>> virtual environments, and public, private, and hybrid clouds.
>>
>> "
> Nothing particularly new, but there is support for silent and
> scripted/parameterised installations that can be used in such
> environments, for example via cloud-init.
>
> As I pointed out though, these descriptions haven't been updated in
> years. We just want to refresh them with more informative and up to
> date information.
>

-- 
Иван Евгеньевич Панченко
Postgres Professional
the Russian PostgreSQL Company
+79104339846

Hi Marc,

> On Jul 4, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Marc Linster @ EDB <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com> wrote:
>
> Here is the updated patch. I have removed the reference to command line install from the Windows installer

From a technical perspective, I would change the “<i>” tags to “<em>” tags.  Additionally there is one place where
“AdvancedUsers” was not given the “<em>” tag that is used elsewhere, in order to maintain consistency.  If that is ok
withyou, I would put the “<em>” tags in those places. 

From a wording perspective, I will start the “24 hour” clock if anyone has any recommendations or changes before
committing.

Thanks,

Jonathan

On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
> be confusing.
>

Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".

JD


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
>> be confusing.
>>
> 
> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".

it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
physical hardware (as in an OS).



Stefan

On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
>>> be confusing.
>>>
>>
>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>
> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
> physical hardware (as in an OS).

I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.

JD


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

> On Jul 6, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
> On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
>>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
>>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
>>>> be confusing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>>
>> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
>> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
>> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
>> physical hardware (as in an OS).
>
> I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.

Does anyone strongly contest to the current language?  If not I will apply the patch tonight.

Jonathan

> On Jul 6, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
> On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
>>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
>>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
>>>> be confusing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>>
>> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
>> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
>> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
>> physical hardware (as in an OS).
>
> I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.

Does anyone strongly contest to the current language?  If not I will apply the patch tonight.

Jonathan

On 07/06/2016 03:18 PM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:

>> Previously the descriptions were held to a bar requiring claims to be
>> based on something other than pure marketing. There is nothing in the
>> EDB installer to make it more cloud ready or bare metal ready or
>> virtualization ready than the standard Postgres source. Applying this
>> will set the standard that marketing fluff is ok.

Yep, and it shouldn't be o.k.. It should be a straight, clear, and 
concise description that is *not* marketing material.

JD



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Rader, David <davidr@openscg.com> wrote:
>
> Previously the descriptions were held to a bar requiring claims to be based
> on something other than pure marketing.

That depends on how you define marketing. The main concerns I had were
the outright inaccuracies.

> There is nothing in the EDB
> installer to make it more cloud ready or bare metal ready or virtualization
> ready than the standard Postgres source. Applying this will set the standard
> that marketing fluff is ok.

Comparing to the source is clearly irrelevant here. Of course, you can
install the source code in any way you want with the appropriate build
environment and what is often a significant amount of scripting.

But people don't want to deal with that, which is why we build
installers for them.

As I previously replied to Scotty, our installers include support for
command line and response file driven installations which can be used
in, for example, a cloud-init based environment to provide an
installation that's performed to the users requirements on instance
launch.

You may not care about such features, but it does not mean they are
not there, and does not make them "marketing fluff".

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>>
>> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
>>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
>>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
>>>> be confusing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>>
>>
>> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
>> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
>> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
>> physical hardware (as in an OS).
>
>
> I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.

That has been my experience too, both in the office and in dealing
with large and small customers.

I really don't care if it says "non-virtualised" instead though.

As an Englishman, I reserve the right to get irked by
"non-virtualized" though. :-)

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 07/07/2016 12:57 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Rader, David <davidr@openscg.com> wrote:

> But people don't want to deal with that, which is why we build
> installers for them.
>

Agreed.

> As I previously replied to Scotty, our installers include support for
> command line and response file driven installations which can be used
> in, for example, a cloud-init based environment to provide an
> installation that's performed to the users requirements on instance
> launch.
>

O.k. now this does make sense. This is my suggestion:

Remove this entire paragraph:

+The installer is designed to be a straightforward, fast way to get up 
and running with
+PostgreSQL on Linux (Red Hat family Linux (including 
CentOS/Fedora/Scientific/Oracle variants),
+Debian GNU/Linux and derivatives, Ubuntu Linux and derivatives, SuSE 
and OpenSuSE) with
+the ability to deploy to user’s workstations, and various server 
environments including
+bare metal, virtual environments, and public, private, and hybrid clouds.
+</p>

And change this line:

+This installer can run in graphical, command line, or silent install

to:

+This installer can run in graphical, command line, or silent install 
including cloud-init automation.

> You may not care about such features, but it does not mean they are
> not there, and does not make them "marketing fluff".
>

This is true but this patch is unnecessarily redundant, which equates to 
"fluff".

Sincerely,

JD

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>>
>> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to users,
>>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still required.
>>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS will
>>>> be confusing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>>
>>
>> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
>> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
>> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
>> physical hardware (as in an OS).
>
>
> I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.

That has been my experience too, both in the office and in dealing
with large and small customers.

I really don't care if it says "non-virtualised" instead though.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, July 7, 2016, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to
>> >>>> users,
>> >>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still
>> >>>> required.
>> >>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS
>> >>>> will
>> >>>> be confusing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
>> >> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
>> >> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
>> >> physical hardware (as in an OS).
>> >
>> >
>> > I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.
>>
>> That has been my experience too, both in the office and in dealing
>> with large and small customers.
>>
>> I really don't care if it says "non-virtualised" instead though.
>>
>
> I know I'm coming late to this discussion, but I have a different comment on
> that. Which is, why is it there in the first plcae.
>
> In what way are the installers more designed for non-virtualized than
> DEB/RPM are? For virualized? For cloud, private, public, or hybrid?

They're more not "more designed" for any environment than RPM/DEBs.
These particular installers are much more flexible than some other
packages in that you can configure various options at installation
time that you cannot do in some other installers, or with RPM/DEBs. In
this case, some of that flexibility can be utilised in virtualised
environments if needed.

That may be of use for some users, or not for others.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, July 7, 2016, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On 07/06/2016 12:02 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 07/06/2016 07:55 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 07/06/2016 10:54 AM, Rader, David wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I am concerned that the "bare metal" description is misleading to
>> >>>> users,
>> >>>> since on both the Linux and Windows installers an OS is still
>> >>>> required.
>> >>>> Suggesting that the installer can setup a full stack including OS
>> >>>> will
>> >>>> be confusing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Bare metal is an industry standard term for, "not virtualized".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> it is but it is usually used in the context of operating systems - so I
>> >> kinda agree with david here that personally I would expect something
>> >> that is for "bare metal" is something that can directly be installed on
>> >> physical hardware (as in an OS).
>> >
>> >
>> > I am good either way, I was just expressing my experience.
>>
>> That has been my experience too, both in the office and in dealing
>> with large and small customers.
>>
>> I really don't care if it says "non-virtualised" instead though.
>>
>
> I know I'm coming late to this discussion, but I have a different comment on
> that. Which is, why is it there in the first plcae.
>
> In what way are the installers more designed for non-virtualized than
> DEB/RPM are? For virualized? For cloud, private, public, or hybrid?

They're more not "more designed" for any environment than RPM/DEBs.
These particular installers are much more flexible than some other
packages in that you can configure various options at installation
time that you cannot do in some other installers, or with RPM/DEBs. In
this case, some of that flexibility can be utilised in virtualised
environments if needed.

That may be of use for some users, or not for others.

Hello,

Attached is a first draft patch that I believe, fixes the issues here.

1. Marketing is removed. We are not here to market vendor products.

2. Message is universal and applies to every vendor (and community projects)

3. Keeps the spirit of design and organization of the current download pages

4. Adds Postgres Pro for Windows

This is a draft patch, I have no doubt it needs a work but at least we
now have something that is agnostic.

The fact is, we can not and should not explicitly delineate between the
feature sets of various vendors. Let them do that on THEIR pages, not
ours. If we continue down this path, in no time we are going to have a
dozen different vendors on these pages, offering what is essentially the
same thing.

Sincerely,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
                         +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

Hello,

Attached is a first draft patch that I believe, fixes the issues here.

1. Marketing is removed. We are not here to market vendor products.

2. Message is universal and applies to every vendor (and community projects)

3. Keeps the spirit of design and organization of the current download pages

4. Adds Postgres Pro for Windows

This is a draft patch, I have no doubt it needs a work but at least we now have something that is agnostic.

The fact is, we can not and should not explicitly delineate between the feature sets of various vendors. Let them do that on THEIR pages, not ours. If we continue down this path, in no time we are going to have a dozen different vendors on these pages, offering what is essentially the same thing.

Sincerely,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
                       +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

<downloads.patch>

On 07/07/2016 10:56 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> I object strongly. I believe we should give information up front to help
> users choose.

The information is there. I am just not including:

Oh, EDB has an "interactive installer", oh "Big SQL" has one too! It is 
just called the Devops sandbox.

(For example).

The other option is, we list each vendor with a link to a page that 
describes each vendors package. That is cumbersome and we aren't getting 
paid by EDB or OpenSCG to do that (at least I am not).

JD


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 07/14/2016 07:11 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> On Jul 14, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Marc Linster
>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Team:
>>
>> here is an updated patch that removes the references to cloud, bare
>> metal etc.
>>
>> Sorry for the delay - too much travel
>>
>> M.
>
> This has passed technical review.  If you have any comments on language
> please share otherwise I will apply the patch tomorrow morning.
>

There is a pending patch that obsoletes the patches by the vendors. That 
patch needs more comments (approval/rejection) before this is applied.

JD



> Jonathan


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 07/14/2016 07:11 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> On Jul 14, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Marc Linster
>>> <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com <mailto:marc.linster@enterprisedb.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Team:
>>>
>>> here is an updated patch that removes the references to cloud, bare
>>> metal etc.
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delay - too much travel
>>>
>>> M.
>>
>>
>> This has passed technical review.  If you have any comments on language
>> please share otherwise I will apply the patch tomorrow morning.
>>
>
> There is a pending patch that obsoletes the patches by the vendors. That
> patch needs more comments (approval/rejection) before this is applied.

I pointed out that the current layout came about as a result of a lot
of experimentation etc. You have done nothing that I've seen to show
that your alternative patch would not cause a regression in what that
work achieved, and thus I strongly object to such changes. Others I've
spoken irl had similar concerns.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 07/14/2016 07:45 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>> On 07/14/2016 07:11 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:

>> There is a pending patch that obsoletes the patches by the vendors. That
>> patch needs more comments (approval/rejection) before this is applied.
>
> I pointed out that the current layout came about as a result of a lot
> of experimentation etc. You have done nothing that I've seen to show

Which is why the changes I made are very conservative and in fact don't 
change the organization of the pages in any way. The only thing I did 
was now take into account that we (.Org) have more than one installer to 
promote.

> that your alternative patch would not cause a regression in what that
> work achieved, and thus I strongly object to such changes. Others I've
> spoken irl had similar concerns.

Then let them speak here.

Dave, instead of just saying , "I strongly object" why not provide some 
specific and constructive feedback? That would allow us to build a patch 
that will satisfy the community and provide a compromise for our 
external vendors that is neutral and fair?

Sincerely,

JD





-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 07/14/2016 07:45 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/14/2016 07:11 AM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>
>
>>> There is a pending patch that obsoletes the patches by the vendors. That
>>> patch needs more comments (approval/rejection) before this is applied.
>>
>>
>> I pointed out that the current layout came about as a result of a lot
>> of experimentation etc. You have done nothing that I've seen to show
>
>
> Which is why the changes I made are very conservative and in fact don't
> change the organization of the pages in any way. The only thing I did was
> now take into account that we (.Org) have more than one installer to
> promote.
>
>> that your alternative patch would not cause a regression in what that
>> work achieved, and thus I strongly object to such changes. Others I've
>> spoken irl had similar concerns.
>
>
> Then let them speak here.

I am, that's why I didn't name them.

> Dave, instead of just saying , "I strongly object" why not provide some
> specific and constructive feedback? That would allow us to build a patch
> that will satisfy the community and provide a compromise for our external
> vendors that is neutral and fair?

I already did, a week or so back.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Andy Astor <andya@bigsql.com> wrote:
>
> I believe it is appropriate to allow some leeway to differentiate offerings
> on these pages, provided they are brief, fact-based, and understated. Such
> differentiations provide the community with useful information. If all the
> offerings are instead presented identically, then a new user would have to
> click-through to each company site to understand the differences, which
> carries at least two problems. First, it adds friction and inconvenience to
> the user experience. Second, there would be no balanced presentation of the
> options; only marketing. With a peer-reviewed patch system such as the one
> we have, we drive companies toward fact-based statements, which I think is
> very valuable to the community.

Very well put Andy, I couldn't agree more.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 07/14/2016 09:14 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Andy Astor <andya@bigsql.com> wrote:
>>
>> I believe it is appropriate to allow some leeway to differentiate offerings
>> on these pages, provided they are brief, fact-based, and understated. Such

Fair enough.


>> differentiations provide the community with useful information. If all the
>> offerings are instead presented identically, then a new user would have to
>> click-through to each company site to understand the differences, which

Except:

1. .Org should not be in the business of marketing products
2. these products are essentially the same (not kind of, not sort of, 
just two different companies vying for click-through traffic)

>> carries at least two problems. First, it adds friction and inconvenience to
>> the user experience. Second, there would be no balanced presentation of the
>> options; only marketing.

Incorrect at least currently, unless you can demonstrably show that 
there are distinct differences in the offerings between EDB and 
OpenSCG/BigSQL.

*If* there is a value added user experience that is significant and 
demonstrable between these two packages, AWESOME! What is it? Then they 
can be distinct on the pages.

> With a peer-reviewed patch system such as the one
>> we have, we drive companies toward fact-based statements, which I think is
>> very valuable to the community.
>

Agreed.

That said, I am done fighting about this. I have more fun things to do 
and CMD doesn't have a stake in this game. Let those who have to apply 
the patches worry about it.

Sincerely,

JD





-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

OK, I’ll take the bait, even tho you said you’re done fighting about it. Just for fun…

There are definitely differences between the offerings. Of course, they’re all Postgres at the core, and that is 99% of
thefundamental value. But the question then is what the offerings add around PostgreSQL. Whether it’s EDB’s stuff or
BigSQL’sstuff or others, there are definitely differences in features, integrations, ease of use, and more. And of
course,we’re better ;-)  

<Before *anyone* takes offense, that was joke.>

Andy

—
Andy Astor
OpenSCG / BigSQL
+1.415.213.2500










> On Jul 14, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
> On 07/14/2016 09:14 AM, Dave Page wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Andy Astor <andya@bigsql.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe it is appropriate to allow some leeway to differentiate offerings
>>> on these pages, provided they are brief, fact-based, and understated. Such
>
> Fair enough.
>
>
>>> differentiations provide the community with useful information. If all the
>>> offerings are instead presented identically, then a new user would have to
>>> click-through to each company site to understand the differences, which
>
> Except:
>
> 1. .Org should not be in the business of marketing products
> 2. these products are essentially the same (not kind of, not sort of, just two different companies vying for
click-throughtraffic) 
>
>>> carries at least two problems. First, it adds friction and inconvenience to
>>> the user experience. Second, there would be no balanced presentation of the
>>> options; only marketing.
>
> Incorrect at least currently, unless you can demonstrably show that there are distinct differences in the offerings
betweenEDB and OpenSCG/BigSQL. 
>
> *If* there is a value added user experience that is significant and demonstrable between these two packages, AWESOME!
Whatis it? Then they can be distinct on the pages. 
>
>> With a peer-reviewed patch system such as the one
>>> we have, we drive companies toward fact-based statements, which I think is
>>> very valuable to the community.
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
> That said, I am done fighting about this. I have more fun things to do and CMD doesn't have a stake in this game. Let
thosewho have to apply the patches worry about it. 
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JD
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
>                        +1-503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 07/14/2016 09:32 AM, Andy Astor wrote:
> OK, I’ll take the bait, even tho you said you’re done fighting about it. Just for fun…
>
> There are definitely differences between the offerings. Of course, they’re all Postgres at the core, and that is 99%
ofthe fundamental value. But the question then is what the offerings add around PostgreSQL. Whether it’s EDB’s stuff or
BigSQL’sstuff or others, there are definitely differences in features, integrations, ease of use, and more. And of
course,we’re better ;-)
 
>
> <Before *anyone* takes offense, that was joke.>

Make PostgreSQL Great Again!


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 07/14/2016 09:11 AM, Andy Astor wrote:
> 
> I believe it is appropriate to allow some leeway to differentiate
> offerings on these pages, /provided they are brief, fact-based, and
> understated./ Such differentiations provide the community with useful
> information./ /If all the offerings are instead presented identically,
> then a new user would have to click-through to each company site to
> understand the differences, which carries at least two problems. First,
> it adds friction and inconvenience to the user experience. Second, there
> would be no balanced presentation of the options; only marketing. With a
> peer-reviewed patch system such as the one we have, we drive companies
> toward fact-based statements, which I think is very valuable to the
> community.

+1

-- 
--
Josh Berkus
Red Hat OSAS
(any opinions are my own)

On 07/24/2016 04:52 PM, Marc Linster @ EDB wrote:
> Magnus:
>
> I fixed the ‘)’ and the unnecessary line-end changes to the BigSQL text.
>
> As BigSQL is mentioned in their headline and in their body text, I
> believe that ‘by EnterpriseDB’ should remain in the corresponding headlines.

Marc,

Thanks for the update, however I agree with Magnus. We need to settle 
down the marketing. I think we can update the BigSQL text to be 
consistent with your listing as well.

JD


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.

On 07/25/2016 11:47 AM, Andy Astor wrote:
> I think it’s quite reasonable for a company to want to be identified in
> the title of the distro. As I wrote in my note a couple of weeks ago, I
> think we should want to balance (a) non-marketing/non-commercial with
> (b) making it very simple for the user to know what they’re looking at,
> in a fact-based way. I continue to believe that the community is
> well-served by organization-specific messages that are /brief,
> fact-based, and understated./

+1

I originally suggested a limit of 150 words. But I think that is to 
high. The paragraph above is 77 words, I think that is too long. I am 
thinking 50 words makes the most sense.

For EnterpriseDB it would be:

"""
EnterpriseDB Interactive Installer:

This installer includes the PostgreSQL server, pgAdmin; a graphical tool 
for managing and developing your databases, and StackBuilder. 
Stackbuilder a package manager for the distribution, includes 
management, integration, migration, replication, geospatial, connectors 
and other tools.

This installer can run in graphical, command line, or silent install modes.
"""

That's it. Any more than that and we are literally feeding marketing 
people. That is not our purpose.

Sincerely




-- 
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/                        +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.

I think it’s quite reasonable for a company to want to be identified in the title of the distro.

As I wrote in my note a couple of weeks ago, I think we should want to balance (a) non-marketing/non-commercial with (b) making it very simple for the user to know what they’re looking at, in a fact-based way. I continue to believe that the community is well-served by organization-specific messages that are brief, fact-based, and understated.

Andy

—

Andy Astor

OpenSCG / BigSQL

+1.415.213.2500

On Jul 24, 2016, at 11:45 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

On 07/24/2016 04:52 PM, Marc Linster @ EDB wrote:

Magnus:

I fixed the ‘)’ and the unnecessary line-end changes to the BigSQL text.

As BigSQL is mentioned in their headline and in their body text, I
believe that ‘by EnterpriseDB’ should remain in the corresponding headlines.

Marc,

Thanks for the update, however I agree with Magnus. We need to settle down the marketing. I think we can update the BigSQL text to be consistent with your listing as well.

JD


--
Command Prompt, Inc.                  http://the.postgres.company/
                       +1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Everyone appreciates your honesty, until you are honest with them.


--
Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

On 25 Jul 2016, at 19:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
> On 25 Jul 2016, at 19:47, Andy Astor <andya@bigsql.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it’s quite reasonable for a company to want to be identified in the title of the distro.
>
> I agree. If nothing else, it allows existing users or those that know what they want to quickly find what they need -
oneof the primary goals of those pages. 
>
>> As I wrote in my note a couple of weeks ago, I think we should want to balance (a) non-marketing/non-commercial with
(b)making it very simple for the user to know what they’re looking at, in a fact-based way. I continue to believe that
thecommunity is well-served by organization-specific messages that are brief, fact-based, and understated. 

We do need to keep in mind reasons (er... excuses! :>) for companies to
put time into furthering the PostgreSQL Community.

For some, if we offer no way of them benefiting - eg no mention of
company name, offering, etc - they'd wouldn't be able to commit
resources. (eg management would be hard to convince)

Balance is important.

The examples here seem ok.  Of course each is trying to say "We're the
best! Choose us!!!".  Because it associates a positive experience (if
the installer goes well) with their company.

Of course, if some offering sucks... that reflects on us all, so lets
burn it with fire. ;D

[eg good installers are fine, as long as we have a fairly high standard
of fine.  Everything else can walk a short plank to hell.]

Hopefully that's not too controversial... :D

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

--
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi

Hi,

> On Jul 24, 2016, at 7:52 PM, Marc Linster @ EDB <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com> wrote:
>
> Magnus:
>
> I fixed the ‘)’ and the unnecessary line-end changes to the BigSQL text.
>
> As BigSQL is mentioned in their headline and in their body text, I believe that ‘by EnterpriseDB’ should remain in
thecorresponding headlines. 
>
> Regards, Marc

I have applied this version of the patch to .org - the language should appear after the next cache purge.

Thanks,

Jonathan

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 04:46:28PM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > On Jul 24, 2016, at 7:52 PM, Marc Linster @ EDB <marc.linster@enterprisedb.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Magnus:
> > 
> > I fixed the ‘)’ and the unnecessary line-end changes to the BigSQL text. 
> > 
> > As BigSQL is mentioned in their headline and in their body text, I believe that ‘by EnterpriseDB’ should remain in
thecorresponding headlines.
 
> > 
> > Regards, Marc
> 
> I have applied this version of the patch to .org - the language should appear after the next cache purge.

Looking at the final version, I find these sentences odd as they sound
almost the same:
https://www.postgresql.org/download/windows/
EnterpriseDB    The installer is designed to be a straightforward, fast    way to get up and running with PostgreSQL on
Windows.BigSQL   This distribution is a fast, developer-friendly way to get    a complete PostgreSQL environment
installedand running.
 

If they sound almost the same, what value does this supply in helping
people choose one of the other?  I think the only difference is
"straightforward" vs. "developer-friendly"?  Is that helpful?

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +