Обсуждение: Launch now???

Hi all,

I've fixed a bunch of issues today, and as far as I can tell, the new
site is ready to go barring some minor issues and ongoing content
updates. As I will be away over the Christmas break, and will not
necessarily have any email access I am keen to go live ASAP so there are
at least a couple of days before Christmas after we switch over.

*** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of objection I will
make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***

Regards, Dave

Dave Page wrote:
<snip>
> *** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of objection I will
> make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***

*Cool*

Not that I've been watching closely enough to know if something's gunna
break, but this sounds like we're approaching high niftiness at speed.  ;)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

> Regards, Dave


--
"One who sees the invisible can do the impossible."
  + Frank Gaines

Yeh , go for it please


On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:09:03 -0000, Dave Page <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've fixed a bunch of issues today, and as far as I can tell, the new
> site is ready to go barring some minor issues and ongoing content
> updates. As I will be away over the Christmas break, and will not
> necessarily have any email access I am keen to go live ASAP so there are
> at least a couple of days before Christmas after we switch over.
>
> *** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of objection I will
> make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***
>
> Regards, Dave
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>       joining column's datatypes do not match
>


--
With Best Regards,
Vishal Kashyap.
Lead Software Developer,
http://saihertz.com,
http://vishalkashyap.tk

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 09:09, Dave Page wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've fixed a bunch of issues today, and as far as I can tell, the new
> site is ready to go barring some minor issues and ongoing content
> updates. As I will be away over the Christmas break, and will not
> necessarily have any email access I am keen to go live ASAP so there are
> at least a couple of days before Christmas after we switch over.
>
> *** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of objection I will
> make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***
>

I would like to see the footer/geko issue resolved if at all possible.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Treat [mailto:xzilla@users.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 16:10
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Launch now???
>
> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 09:09, Dave Page wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've fixed a bunch of issues today, and as far as I can
> tell, the new
> > site is ready to go barring some minor issues and ongoing content
> > updates. As I will be away over the Christmas break, and will not
> > necessarily have any email access I am keen to go live ASAP
> so there are
> > at least a couple of days before Christmas after we switch over.
> >
> > *** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of
> objection I will
> > make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***
> >
>
> I would like to see the footer/geko issue resolved if at all
> possible.

So would I, but my overriding concern right now is when I'm going to be
around to fix any problems on the infrastructure side of things.

Unless you want to delay until the new year?

Regards, Dave.

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:40, Dave Page wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Treat [mailto:xzilla@users.sourceforge.net]
> > Sent: 21 December 2004 16:10
> > To: Dave Page
> > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org
> > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Launch now???
> >
> > On Tuesday 21 December 2004 09:09, Dave Page wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've fixed a bunch of issues today, and as far as I can
> >
> > tell, the new
> >
> > > site is ready to go barring some minor issues and ongoing content
> > > updates. As I will be away over the Christmas break, and will not
> > > necessarily have any email access I am keen to go live ASAP
> >
> > so there are
> >
> > > at least a couple of days before Christmas after we switch over.
> > >
> > > *** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of
> >
> > objection I will
> >
> > > make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***
> >
> > I would like to see the footer/geko issue resolved if at all
> > possible.
>
> So would I, but my overriding concern right now is when I'm going to be
> around to fix any problems on the infrastructure side of things.
>
> Unless you want to delay until the new year?
>

If I were to even suggest such a thing I am sure I would be defrocked.

By the way, the announcement message feels a little cold to me, can we liven
it up a bit... perhaps something like http://xzilla.postgresql.org/ ?

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Treat [mailto:xzilla@users.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 19:13
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Launch now???
>
>
> If I were to even suggest such a thing I am sure I would be
> defrocked.

:-)

> By the way, the announcement message feels a little cold to
> me, can we liven
> it up a bit... perhaps something like http://xzilla.postgresql.org/ ?

OK, I tweaked it a bit to include the description of PostgreSQL per
Omar's previous comments:

http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/

Regards, Dave.

Hi,

Dave Page wrote:
> OK, I tweaked it a bit to include the description of PostgreSQL per

"Merry Christmas from the Web Team

After months of much debate and hard work, the PostgreSQL Web Team has
decided it is time to send the new website out into the world as an
early Christmas gift to all PostgreSQL users. We hope you like it!

- Gift doesn't fit? Let us know....

PostgreSQL is a highly-scalable, SQL compliant, Open Source
object-relational database management system.

- About PostgreSQL"

This change has been reverted, pending proper discussion.

- Offensive, culturally insensitive, religious text. ("Merry Christmas
from the Web Team")
- Content is self-expiring.
- Bad writing, improper grammar and capitalization.
- Asking for negative comments *only* means that... you'll only get
*negative* comments!
- Too much text and abuse of design (Only one paragraph should ever be
there. And only one line of links, separated by |. If you can't write a
paragraph with an *integrated* explanation of what PostgreSQL is, then
that's the wrong paragraph to be putting in that box.)
- No discussion of change on the list. Something that keeps being
advocated, yet rarely happens, if at all.

Perhaps it would be wise to think about and thoroughly discuss a change
prior to committing it to CVS, especially if the intention is to go live
with it.

Best Regards,
Omar Kilani

Omar Kilani wrote:
<snip>
> Perhaps it would be wise to think about and thoroughly discuss a change
> prior to committing it to CVS, especially if the intention is to go live
> with it.

Heh, I think that Dave probably thought of it as a "quick fix" rather
than a big thing needing discussing.

Personal thoughts:

  + I'm unsure that giving people a "Christmas present" is culturally
offensive.  Why would giving a present to mark an occasion be
*offensive* to people?

  + Having the description of PostgreSQL after the New Site Look
announcement text definitely doesn't feel right however.

    Not sure of a *better* approach, but that one doesn't feel right,
though I could live with it.

:)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


> Best Regards,
> Omar Kilani

--
"One who sees the invisible can do the impossible."
  + Frank Gaines

>
> This change has been reverted, pending proper discussion.
>
> - Offensive, culturally insensitive, religious text. ("Merry Christmas
> from the Web Team")


Uhhmmm... I normally wouldn't get invovled in such a discussion, but as
of tommorow, Solstice
is over and Hannukah (sp?) has been over for a while... It is a
Christmas present.

It is also not offensive to say Merry Christmas to someone, even if they
don't celebrate it.
If you take offense to it... well then get a life. It is not about
pushing and ideal or
a religious process onto anyone. It is depending on your belief:

1. A celebration of Christ in which you are expressing your happiness.
You don't have to agree with it.
You should be happy for the person who has the belief.

2. A celebration of the end of the year, which is what a minority of
people (in the US) view it as.

3. A painful reminder of the rampant consumerism that envelops the
majority of people and will quite
possibly be the cause of the fall of modern society.

O.k. I am getting a little negative now ;).

Long story short 1 and 2 aren't that bad... and most people on the
planet celebrate christmas because
of number 2, including areas such as Europe and Japan.


> - Content is self-expiring.


Yes and in a week it will say, Happy New Year!

> - Bad writing, improper grammar and capitalization.

Fair enough.

> - Asking for negative comments *only* means that... you'll only get
> *negative* comments!

I agree with this.

>
> Perhaps it would be wise to think about and thoroughly discuss a
> change prior to committing it to CVS, especially if the intention is
> to go live with it.


Fair enough.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


>
>
> Best Regards,
> Omar Kilani
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend



--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 21:58, Omar Kilani wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Dave Page wrote:
> > OK, I tweaked it a bit to include the description of PostgreSQL per
>
> "Merry Christmas from the Web Team
>
> After months of much debate and hard work, the PostgreSQL Web Team has
> decided it is time to send the new website out into the world as an
> early Christmas gift to all PostgreSQL users. We hope you like it!
>
> - Gift doesn't fit? Let us know....
>
> PostgreSQL is a highly-scalable, SQL compliant, Open Source
> object-relational database management system.
>
> - About PostgreSQL"
>
> This change has been reverted, pending proper discussion.
>
> - Offensive, culturally insensitive, religious text. ("Merry Christmas
> from the Web Team")

you're not really one of those people are you?

> - Content is self-expiring.

so? if nothing else it will be replaced with the 8.0 release announcement, and
if that is to far off it takes minutes to change the wording.

> - Bad writing, improper grammar and capitalization.

granted I liked my wording better, but the old writing is cold and stiff, a
moutfull to read, and way too formal for our needs.

> - Asking for negative comments *only* means that... you'll only get
> *negative* comments!

The advantage is that in case anything is broken people know right up front
where to send thier problems rather than possibly having them report on irc
or some odd mailing list that no one follows.  Besides, I know I don't really
need any ego strokeing...

> - Too much text and abuse of design (Only one paragraph should ever be
> there. And only one line of links, separated by |.

Too much abuse of design?!?  You do understand that you have no control of
what this web page looks like in my browser don't you?

> If you can't write a
> paragraph with an *integrated* explanation of what PostgreSQL is, then
> that's the wrong paragraph to be putting in that box.)

If this design breaks because someone posts two paragraphs without an
integrated description of what postgresql is, then quite frankly the design
blows.   There is no need to force the mouthful of postgresql being in
osordbms into every announcement on the site.   The tag line and a link for
more information can accomplish that goal.

> - No discussion of change on the list. Something that keeps being
> advocated, yet rarely happens, if at all.
>

Uh... I posted the sample to the list, Dave reviewed it and applied a change.
There were no objections at the time he did so.  Do we have to take a vote on
*every*  *single*  *thing*  that is going to be changed on the site?  I
certainly have no desire to live with that kind of micro-management

> Perhaps it would be wise to think about and thoroughly discuss a change
> prior to committing it to CVS, especially if the intention is to go live
> with it.
>

Eat your own dog food; you reverted Dave's change without saying anything to
anyone on this list.  If I were the type to get into pissing contests I'd do
the same right back to you.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Joshua,

> It is also not offensive to say Merry Christmas to someone, even if they
> don't celebrate it.
> If you take offense to it... well then get a life. It is not about
> pushing and ideal or
> a religious process onto anyone. It is depending on your belief:
>
> 1. A celebration of Christ in which you are expressing your happiness.
> You don't have to agree with it.
> You should be happy for the person who has the belief.

Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry
Christmas" to the international PostgreSQL community may be interpreted
as culturally insensitive, as it implies that the *entire* PostgreSQL
Global Development Group has this particular belief (which from a quick
glance at the locations and backgrounds of developers, seems unlikely),
and that *everyone* in the PostgreSQL community celebrates Christmas.
Sure, maybe only a minority will be offended, but is it worth the risk
with such a diverse, international community?

There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
the references to Christmas. Google uses this phrasing, as do many
organisations who don't want to risk offending anyone. While it may be
simple to fix, the issue is that the content seems to have been written
with little consideration of its implications.

Regards,
Emily

Emily Boyd wrote:
<snip>
> Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry
> Christmas" to the international PostgreSQL community may be interpreted
> as culturally insensitive, as it implies that the *entire* PostgreSQL
> Global Development Group has this particular belief (which from a quick
> glance at the locations and backgrounds of developers, seems unlikely),
> and that *everyone* in the PostgreSQL community celebrates Christmas.

Hmmm.  It's more likely to be taken as a sign that members of the
PostgreSQL Global Development Group are culturally *sensitive* and will
do what we can for making the world a nicer place to live in.


> Sure, maybe only a minority will be offended, but is it worth the risk
> with such a diverse, international community?

Yes.  It's one of those "damned if you do, and damned if you don't"
things, so lets just pick the one that makes the world a bit nicer.


> There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
> the references to Christmas. Google uses this phrasing, as do many
> organisations who don't want to risk offending anyone. While it may be
> simple to fix, the issue is that the content seems to have been written
> with little consideration of its implications.

"Happy Holidays" also has the advantage of not needing an update for the
New Year too.  :)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


> Regards,
> Emily


--
"One who sees the invisible can do the impossible."
  + Frank Gaines

I'm voting for Happy Festivus!  Sensitivity be damned!


On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 22:47 -0500, Emily Boyd wrote:
> Joshua,
>
> > It is also not offensive to say Merry Christmas to someone, even if they
> > don't celebrate it.
> > If you take offense to it... well then get a life. It is not about
> > pushing and ideal or
> > a religious process onto anyone. It is depending on your belief:
> >
> > 1. A celebration of Christ in which you are expressing your happiness.
> > You don't have to agree with it.
> > You should be happy for the person who has the belief.
>
> Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry
> Christmas" to the international PostgreSQL community may be interpreted
> as culturally insensitive, as it implies that the *entire* PostgreSQL
> Global Development Group has this particular belief (which from a quick
> glance at the locations and backgrounds of developers, seems unlikely),
> and that *everyone* in the PostgreSQL community celebrates Christmas.
> Sure, maybe only a minority will be offended, but is it worth the risk
> with such a diverse, international community?
>
> There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
> the references to Christmas. Google uses this phrasing, as do many
> organisations who don't want to risk offending anyone. While it may be
> simple to fix, the issue is that the content seems to have been written
> with little consideration of its implications.
>
> Regards,
> Emily
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>       joining column's datatypes do not match

> I'm voting for Happy Festivus!  Sensitivity be damned!

I concur!

... John

Emily Boyd wrote:

> Joshua,
>
>> It is also not offensive to say Merry Christmas to someone, even if
>> they don't celebrate it.
>> If you take offense to it... well then get a life. It is not about
>> pushing and ideal or
>> a religious process onto anyone. It is depending on your belief:
>>
>> 1. A celebration of Christ in which you are expressing your
>> happiness. You don't have to agree with it.
>> You should be happy for the person who has the belief.
>
>
> Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry
> Christmas" to the international PostgreSQL community may be
> interpreted as culturally insensitive, as it implies that the *entire*
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group has this particular belief

I do not agree. Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* say
"Merry Christmas", is saying hey Merry Christmas.
Just as I would say Happy Solstice to a friend of mine who is a Pagan. I
don't celebrate Solstice but that doesn't
mean I can't be happy for, or appreciate that "he" does celebrate Solstice.


> (which from a quick glance at the locations and backgrounds of
> developers, seems unlikely), and that *everyone* in the PostgreSQL
> community celebrates Christmas. Sure, maybe only a minority will be
> offended, but is it worth the risk with such a diverse, international
> community?

Uhmmm... it offends me that we are having a discussion about the fact
that we can't say "Merry Christmas" and there has
already been one other post by another member saying that he thinks it
is silly as well.

>
> There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
> the references to Christmas.

Not really because the Holidays, except for Christmas -- are over.


> Google uses this phrasing, as do many organisations who don't want to
> risk offending anyone. While it may be simple to fix, the issue is
> that the content seems to have been written with little consideration
> of its implications.

Good lord. Emily I am sorry, I am sure that you are a really nice person
but the sentence above just bleeds...

I am a big corporation who has to make sure that every shareholder is
happy and that every customer thinks we are a
neutral so that **GASP** everyone will want to buy our product.

It sounds like politics.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



>
> Regards,
> Emily
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if
> your
>      joining column's datatypes do not match



--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Gavin M. Roy wrote:

>I'm voting for Happy Festivus!  Sensitivity be damned!
>
>
O.k. I had to wikipedia the above but I think it is very funny.
You have my vote for the above providing we use the whole
sentence !

Happy Festivus! Sensitivity be damned!

Joshua D. Drake



>
>On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 22:47 -0500, Emily Boyd wrote:
>
>
>>Joshua,
>>
>>
>>
>>>It is also not offensive to say Merry Christmas to someone, even if they
>>>don't celebrate it.
>>>If you take offense to it... well then get a life. It is not about
>>>pushing and ideal or
>>>a religious process onto anyone. It is depending on your belief:
>>>
>>>1. A celebration of Christ in which you are expressing your happiness.
>>>You don't have to agree with it.
>>>You should be happy for the person who has the belief.
>>>
>>>
>>Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry
>>Christmas" to the international PostgreSQL community may be interpreted
>>as culturally insensitive, as it implies that the *entire* PostgreSQL
>>Global Development Group has this particular belief (which from a quick
>>glance at the locations and backgrounds of developers, seems unlikely),
>>and that *everyone* in the PostgreSQL community celebrates Christmas.
>>Sure, maybe only a minority will be offended, but is it worth the risk
>>with such a diverse, international community?
>>
>>There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
>>the references to Christmas. Google uses this phrasing, as do many
>>organisations who don't want to risk offending anyone. While it may be
>>simple to fix, the issue is that the content seems to have been written
>>with little consideration of its implications.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Emily
>>
>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>>TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>>      joining column's datatypes do not match
>>
>>
>
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>
>


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Emily Boyd <emily@tinysofa.org> writes:
> There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
> the references to Christmas.

I agree with Emily on this.  There's no need to risk offending people of
non-Christian faiths.  (Most faiths that I've heard of do have some sort
of celebration near the winter solstice, so "happy holidays" at this
time of year isn't going to bother anyone.  Just don't say *which*
holiday.)

            regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
<snip>
> I agree with Emily on this.  There's no need to risk offending people of
> non-Christian faiths.

As a thought, this is a thread about the "risk" of offending "anyone".

How do we *offend* someone by wishing them well?

Is there truly a significant *risk* involved for us?

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

--
"One who sees the invisible can do the impossible."
  + Frank Gaines

Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> <snip>
>> I agree with Emily on this.  There's no need to risk offending people of
>> non-Christian faiths.

> As a thought, this is a thread about the "risk" of offending "anyone".

> How do we *offend* someone by wishing them well?

As a practicing atheist, I am not offended.  But if you do not realize
that a fair part of the world will be offended, then you need to wake up
and smell the flowers.  Or at least read the daily news occasionally.

Yes, I'm painfully aware that several major members of our community
attach in-your-face-Christian signatures to everything they send out.
I've never wanted to challenge them on this, but if it were my druthers
that would not be done around here.  I think it is more likely to drive
away potential community members than attract new ones.

            regards, tom lane

Hello,

Robert Treat wrote:

>>- No discussion of change on the list. Something that keeps being
>>advocated, yet rarely happens, if at all.
>>
>
> Uh... I posted the sample to the list, Dave reviewed it and applied a change.
> There were no objections at the time he did so.  Do we have to take a vote on
> *every*  *single*  *thing*  that is going to be changed on the site?  I
> certainly have no desire to live with that kind of micro-management

This "single thing" is on front page of the site. It's the most
important, highly visible part of the site. *Of course* it should be
discussed. Especially if it's the "go live" text.

>>Perhaps it would be wise to think about and thoroughly discuss a change
>>prior to committing it to CVS, especially if the intention is to go live
>>with it.
>>
>
> Eat your own dog food; you reverted Dave's change without saying anything to
> anyone on this list.  If I were the type to get into pissing contests I'd do
> the same right back to you.

There has already been a discussion and agreement about the text. What
it was *prior* to the Christmas-related text is what was agreed upon, so
it was set back to that. This isn't difficult to change--it would take a
couple of minutes at most to change the content once there is proper
agreement on it, even if that means putting the Christmas-related text
back up.

You suggested the change, and Dave applied it. There was no thought of
implications, and no consensus reached (two is not a consensus.)

The problem is assuming people are happy with something just because
they don't say anything. Most people on the list lurk and observe, but
don't comment. That isn't agreement.

The point is that there has to be more discussion, and more time for it.

If a proper discussion had ensued about this point, the same *message*
could have been integrated into the front page, with, e.g., a "Happy
Holidays from the PostgreSQL team" heading, and better written text. And
it could have been made to look much better than what it did.

Absolute control over what goes into the website should not be in the
hands of two people. No, one is not expected to discuss changes to minor
things, fixing up formatting, etc. But to change the front page text
without weighing up the implications, the advantages and disadvantages,
the message that it sends on behalf of the PostgreSQL group, without
proper discussion is irresponsible.

Perhaps the proposal to change the text should have been started in a
separate thread, as introducing it within a very long thread about
something else is going to increase the chance of oversight by the list
members.

That we're now discussing the content properly, with input from all
sides, is exactly what should have happened in the first place, prior to
committing the Christmas-related change.

Best Regards,
Omar Kilani

>Yes, I'm painfully aware that several major members of our community
>attach in-your-face-Christian signatures to everything they send out.
>I've never wanted to challenge them on this, but if it were my druthers
>that would not be done around here.  I think it is more likely to drive
>away potential community members than attract new ones.
>
>
Without getting into a religious debate here it should be
noted that their are far more, in population members of
faith than there are not.

Although I do respect your faith, or lack of one in this case
there is probably something to be said by the fact that over
70% of the worlds population believe in the same God.

To be clear... Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in
the same God. They all just get there a little different.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



>            regards, tom lane
>
>


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

Hi,

Dave Page wrote:

> I've fixed a bunch of issues today, and as far as I can tell, the new
> site is ready to go barring some minor issues and ongoing content
> updates. As I will be away over the Christmas break, and will not
> necessarily have any email access I am keen to go live ASAP so there are
> at least a couple of days before Christmas after we switch over.

It is inappropriate to *suggest* something and then go ahead and do it
without consensus, e.g., removing the events archive, removing the
"About the new website" link and changing the content to potentially
culturally insensitive text, linking things externally instead of
actually taking the time to do things properly and integrating with the
site, and removing the press section entirely.

You can't just *remove links to proposed or incomplete content* and mark
it as done. Recklessly cutting corners should *not* be an acceptable way
to ready the site for launch.

We're still working on and evaluating the entire site. On a cursory
glance I can see TODOs still left on the site (History?), the unfinished
Developer section (we're still working on this), the spelling mistakes
(Licence? -- the rest of the site is in American English), broken links
on the front page, the developer page, problems with books under docs,
the list subscription page doesn't have all the lists, etc. We're aware
of these issues and we're working on them.

Additionally, there's no meaningful error page should someone happen to
follow a link from an external site to what used to be on the old site.

Of course, this is by no means an exhaustive list of the problems with
the website and really is just scratching the surface.

Once all the known problems have been addressed, it would be common
sense to ask pgsql-www to thoroughly test the site and report back any
issues. *Only* once the site has been fully tested and all of the issues
resolved should the site be considered ready for launch.

> *** With that in mind, unless there are any screams of objection I will
> make the site live tomorrow AM (GMT). ***

Consider this a scream of objection. A half-finished site is *not* a
site that's ready for launch. The site in its current state would
reflect very poorly on PostgreSQL.

It would be foolish to unnecessarily rush to put the site live before
Christmas; just before everyone goes on holiday is the *worst* time to
launch.

While we appreciate that everyone is anxious to see the site launch as
soon as possible, we fail to see why we can't wait to actually *finish*
the site before putting it live.

Best Regards,
Omar Kilani
Emily Boyd

Tom Lane wrote:
<snip>
> As a practicing atheist, I am not offended.

No worries.

I'm not Christian, and I'm also not *offended*.


> But if you do not realize
> that a fair part of the world will be offended, then you need to wake up
> and smell the flowers.  Or at least read the daily news occasionally.

Heh.  I'll call you on that one.

People often talk about the "risk of offending someone" but like...
who's the *someone*?

This kind of "fear of perhaps, at some point, maybe some day, we might
accidentally hurt someone's feelings" is so non-concrete and vague that
it can be extended practically infinitely.  It's kind of like giving in
to Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, just because you're "not sure".


> Yes, I'm painfully aware that several major members of our community
> attach in-your-face-Christian signatures to everything they send out.

Me too.  Some of them give off a "my belief system is the only form of
right" type of attitude with it.

However, "Merry Christmas" is not of that ilk.  It's not people saying
that *any* form of belief is better than some other form of belief.

The "someone" who gets *offended* by a Merry Christmas statement wishing
them well would have to already be in a very bad place (mentally) in
order to be offended.


> I've never wanted to challenge them on this, but if it were my druthers
> that would not be done around here.  I think it is more likely to drive
> away potential community members than attract new ones.

Totally agreed.  The various "full on" signatures that espouse people's
personal religious fantasies as being the only truth(s) are the kind of
thing that gives a bad impression.

Not being able to express a simple "Merry Christmas" is a different kind
of thing, where people are encouraged to be afraid of others around them
in case "something bad happens".

That's a very, very bad road to start going down if we want our
Community to have a good & healthy culture.

Would people on this mailing list have an issue with us conversely
marking other important celebrations as well (religious or not)?  Hindi
and Buddhist ones for example?

;)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


>             regards, tom lane


--
"One who sees the invisible can do the impossible."
  + Frank Gaines

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 23:35, Tom Lane wrote:
> Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
> > Tom Lane wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> >> I agree with Emily on this.  There's no need to risk offending people of
> >> non-Christian faiths.
> >
> > As a thought, this is a thread about the "risk" of offending "anyone".
> >
> > How do we *offend* someone by wishing them well?
>
> As a practicing atheist, I am not offended.  But if you do not realize
> that a fair part of the world will be offended, then you need to wake up
> and smell the flowers.  Or at least read the daily news occasionally.
>
> Yes, I'm painfully aware that several major members of our community
> attach in-your-face-Christian signatures to everything they send out.
> I've never wanted to challenge them on this, but if it were my druthers
> that would not be done around here.  I think it is more likely to drive
> away potential community members than attract new ones.
>

I find the free speech implications of the above stupifying for an open source
project.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Wednesday 22 December 2004 00:05, Justin Clift wrote:
> People often talk about the "risk of offending someone" but like...
> who's the *someone*?

At least half of the MySQL community is 'offended' by our very existence.
Not to mention our claim to be the 'most advanced open source databse' or our
ACID-compliance stance or....

Should we fold up shop?

As an ordained Baptist Minister, I run into this quite often.  My very
existence offends some; I yet exist.  And have been at least somewhat of a
productive member of the PostgreSQL community.  I tell people that I got my
education in Atlanta Georgia; I also went to school there.  Waking up with
shotgun blast holes in your door, in your walls, and lead in you matress is
not a comforting thing; that did in fact happen to me.  I've seen a few
things.

That is, I guess, the best lesson I ever learned from Usenet and running a
C-New site back in the day; the base credo: 'Not only are there people on
Usenet who disagree with you, there are people on Usenet who would be happy
to kill you for your beliefs, somewhere, regardless of belief.'

Yet I admined a C-New site for several years, participating in news.groups,
news.admin, and reading the occassional alt.flame mass cross-post.  I
certainly have been flamed.  My old pre-google-archive  .sig certainly
stirred up a few back in the day.

In my present job I continue to see many things along these lines, unlike my
previous job, which was with a Baptist radio station/internet site (and yet
provided equipment on which I built and distributed PostgreSQL RPMs for
several years).  Astronomers are an interesting lot; I have seen quite an
interesting cross-section in the last year and a half.

Regardless of what you say, it WILL offend someone.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive
Rosman, NC  28772
(828)862-5554
www.pari.edu

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 23:51, Omar Kilani wrote:
> >>Perhaps it would be wise to think about and thoroughly discuss a change
> >>prior to committing it to CVS, especially if the intention is to go live
> >>with it.
> >
> > Eat your own dog food; you reverted Dave's change without saying anything
> > to anyone on this list.  If I were the type to get into pissing contests
> > I'd do the same right back to you.
>
> There has already been a discussion and agreement about the text. What
> it was *prior* to the Christmas-related text is what was agreed upon, so
> it was set back to that. This isn't difficult to change--it would take a
> couple of minutes at most to change the content once there is proper
> agreement on it, even if that means putting the Christmas-related text
> back up.
>

Let me see if my history is correct. Emily changed the code in CVS (over
writing Dave's previous message that had several names listed in it) to a
wording that seems to me to be completly created on her own with no
proposal/discussion.  She then posted a message about the new announcement in
a thread that quickly tailed off into a discussion about the elephant graphic
and where to list web contributors, and afaict recieved no comments about
whether people agreed on the content or not.  (Which is pretty much irrelvent
since she changed Dave's code a priori anyways)

> You suggested the change, and Dave applied it. There was no thought of
> implications, and no consensus reached (two is not a consensus.)
>

Your rewriting history for your own purposes. You have no way to know if there
was any thought to implications (there was on my part).  And I counter your
claims of no consensous with a claim that no one objected.

> The problem is assuming people are happy with something just because
> they don't say anything. Most people on the list lurk and observe, but
> don't comment. That isn't agreement.
>

How long does one have to wait to get tacit approval from every member of the
list?

> The point is that there has to be more discussion, and more time for it.
> If a proper discussion had ensued about this point, the same *message*
> could have been integrated into the front page, with, e.g., a "Happy
> Holidays from the PostgreSQL team" heading, and better written text. And
> it could have been made to look much better than what it did.
>
> Absolute control over what goes into the website should not be in the
> hands of two people.

And yet here again you reverted back the changes with no discussion at all.
At best you had two people in favor of the change to your one being against
it and you still decided that control over what was on the site could sit
nicely in the hands of one person.

> No, one is not expected to discuss changes to minor
> things, fixing up formatting, etc. But to change the front page text
> without weighing up the implications, the advantages and disadvantages,
> the message that it sends on behalf of the PostgreSQL group, without
> proper discussion is irresponsible.
>
> Perhaps the proposal to change the text should have been started in a
> separate thread, as introducing it within a very long thread about
> something else is going to increase the chance of oversight by the list
> members.
>

Huh? The thread it was introduced in was about anything people thought had to
be changed before we went live, and it was the 4th post into that thread.
I'll grant that there have been a lot of posts on the list in the last few
days so certainly someone could miss seeing posts here and there, but given
the timeframe things are being worked on that seems like a pretty legitiment
place to have brought it up.

> That we're now discussing the content properly, with input from all
> sides, is exactly what should have happened in the first place, prior to
> committing the Christmas-related change.
>

I shudder to think that we're going to have to go through all this everytime
someone wants to change the main announcement...

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Wednesday 22 December 2004 00:42, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 23:51, Omar Kilani wrote:
>
> > That we're now discussing the content properly, with input from all
> > sides, is exactly what should have happened in the first place, prior to
> > committing the Christmas-related change.
>
> I shudder to think that we're going to have to go through all this
> everytime someone wants to change the main announcement...

Let me just follow this up with a "Has anyone actually posted a replcement
text for the entire Christmas message?"  All I've seen so far is a "we better
use the phrase happy holidays otherwise people might find out that not
everyone believes in exactly what they believe in"... we're going to need
more than that to move forward...

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

> I'm voting for Happy Festivus!  Sensitivity be damned!

Festivus?


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>> There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove the
>> references to Christmas.
>
> Not really because the Holidays, except for Christmas -- are over.

Not true ... in several cultures, New Years is a Holiday ... and, for the
Chinese(?), they celebrate NYs, what, a month or so later?

In fact, given all of the different cultures, I imagine 'Happy Holidays'
*could* be year round ... since someone is celebrating somthing sometime
no? :)


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Tom Lane wrote:

> Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
>> Tom Lane wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> I agree with Emily on this.  There's no need to risk offending people of
>>> non-Christian faiths.
>
>> As a thought, this is a thread about the "risk" of offending "anyone".
>
>> How do we *offend* someone by wishing them well?
>
> As a practicing atheist

How do you 'practice' being an atheist?  Almost sounds like something that
is hard to do, so you need to practice to get it right? :)

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Wednesday 22 December 2004 01:08, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> > I'm voting for Happy Festivus!  Sensitivity be damned!
>
> Festivus?
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

>
> Not true ... in several cultures, New Years is a Holiday ... and, for
> the Chinese(?), they celebrate NYs, what, a month or so later?
>
> In fact, given all of the different cultures, I imagine 'Happy
> Holidays' *could* be year round ... since someone is celebrating
> somthing sometime no? :)

That's it.. I am claiming Happy Holidays! Then I can just drink all year
and the Government will pay me not to work
everyday.

Oh wait...

>
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ:
> 7615664



--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Omar Kilani wrote:

> The problem is assuming people are happy with something just because
> they don't say anything. Most people on the list lurk and observe, but
> don't comment. That isn't agreement.

If they aren't goin to comment until after the fact, even when th change
was proposed before being done, then those who 'lurk' really have no right
to raise a stink *after the fact*

> That we're now discussing the content properly, with input from all
> sides, is exactly what should have happened in the first place, prior to
> committing the Christmas-related change.

So, why wasn't it discussed when it was first proposed?  Or are you one of
those 'lurkers who won't comment when they disagree, yet raises a stink
after because they didn't say anything'?




----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

>>
>>> How do we *offend* someone by wishing them well?
>>
>>
>> As a practicing atheist
>
>
> How do you 'practice' being an atheist?  Almost sounds like something
> that is hard to do, so you need to practice to get it right? :)

Well I don't want to speak for Tom but I am going to assume what he
means is that:

He believes in Atheisim.

Where is some people are Atheists because they just don't know or
believe in general.

Although I am not an Atheisim expert and it has always boggled me in
general.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ:
> 7615664
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
>               http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html



--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Justin Clift wrote:

> Tom Lane wrote:
> <snip>
>> As a practicing atheist, I am not offended.
>
> No worries.
>
> I'm not Christian, and I'm also not *offended*.
>
>
>> But if you do not realize
>> that a fair part of the world will be offended, then you need to wake up
>> and smell the flowers.  Or at least read the daily news occasionally.
>
> Heh.  I'll call you on that one.
>
> People often talk about the "risk of offending someone" but like... who's the
> *someone*?
>
> This kind of "fear of perhaps, at some point, maybe some day, we might
> accidentally hurt someone's feelings" is so non-concrete and vague that
> it can be extended practically infinitely.  It's kind of like giving in
> to Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, just because you're "not sure".

Isn't this what they call being *cough* *gah* Politically Correct?

> Would people on this mailing list have an issue with us conversely
> marking other important celebrations as well (religious or not)?  Hindi
> and Buddhist ones for example?

We could do 'seasonal themes / calendars' :)



----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
>>
>> Not true ... in several cultures, New Years is a Holiday ... and, for the
>> Chinese(?), they celebrate NYs, what, a month or so later?
>>
>> In fact, given all of the different cultures, I imagine 'Happy Holidays'
>> *could* be year round ... since someone is celebrating somthing sometime
>> no? :)
>
> That's it.. I am claiming Happy Holidays! Then I can just drink all year and
> the Government will pay me not to work
> everyday.

I wonder how many 'work days' there would be if you were to line up all
the variosu 'holidays' for religion and state around the world :)

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

>>
>> Heh.  I'll call you on that one.
>>
>> People often talk about the "risk of offending someone" but like...
>> who's the *someone*?
>>
>> This kind of "fear of perhaps, at some point, maybe some day, we
>> might accidentally hurt someone's feelings" is so non-concrete and
>> vague that it can be extended practically infinitely.  It's kind of
>> like giving in to Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, just because you're
>> "not sure".
>
>
> Isn't this what they call being *cough* *gah* Politically Correct?


Yes and it to is making me cough.

>
>> Would people on this mailing list have an issue with us conversely
>> marking other important celebrations as well (religious or not)?
>> Hindi and Buddhist ones for example?
>
>
> We could do 'seasonal themes / calendars' :)


Well we can't do that... not everyone uses the Gregorian calendar ;)


>
>
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ:
> 7615664
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
>               http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html



--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

On Wednesday 22 December 2004 01:16, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >>> How do we *offend* someone by wishing them well?
> >>
> >> As a practicing atheist
> >
> > How do you 'practice' being an atheist?  Almost sounds like something
> > that is hard to do, so you need to practice to get it right? :)
>
> Well I don't want to speak for Tom but I am going to assume what he
> means is that:
>
> He believes in Atheisim.
>
> Where is some people are Atheists because they just don't know or
> believe in general.
>

If you just don't know, I'd tend to think you were agnostic... there there are
different types of those too.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>> That we're now discussing the content properly, with input from all
>> sides, is exactly what should have happened in the first place, prior
>> to committing the Christmas-related change.
>
> So, why wasn't it discussed when it was first proposed?  Or are you one
> of those 'lurkers who won't comment when they disagree, yet raises a
> stink after because they didn't say anything'?

There isn't enough time in the day to read and reply to every single
email on the list, and having the proposal hidden in a large thread
isn't going to get as many people looking into it.

Also, a three hour window between "Dave, how about this?" to "it's now
in CVS" is hardly enough time to render proper discussion. Some people
sleep, or work, or do other things besides post to pgsql-www.

Omar

> Would people on this mailing list have an issue with us conversely
> marking other important celebrations as well (religious or not)?  Hindi
> and Buddhist ones for example?

I'm neither christian, buddhist, or atheist, and I'd have no problem
with that.

... John

Hi,

Emily Boyd wrote:
> Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry
> Christmas" to the international PostgreSQL community may be interpreted
> as culturally insensitive, as it implies that the *entire* PostgreSQL
> Global Development Group has this particular belief (which from a quick
> glance at the locations and backgrounds of developers, seems unlikely),
> and that *everyone* in the PostgreSQL community celebrates Christmas.
> Sure, maybe only a minority will be offended, but is it worth the risk
> with such a diverse, international community?

There is another wrong implication that Christmas is celebrated Right Now.
That's not the case in Russia and probably several other Orthodox countries
where Christmas is celebrated on 7th of January.

So I would be offended if I really cared (though I don't).

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Emily Boyd wrote:
>> Having *The PostgreSQL Global Development Group* saying "Merry Christmas"
>> to the international PostgreSQL community may be interpreted as culturally
>> insensitive, as it implies that the *entire* PostgreSQL Global Development
>> Group has this particular belief (which from a quick glance at the
>> locations and backgrounds of developers, seems unlikely), and that
>> *everyone* in the PostgreSQL community celebrates Christmas. Sure, maybe
>> only a minority will be offended, but is it worth the risk with such a
>> diverse, international community?
>
> There is another wrong implication that Christmas is celebrated Right Now.
> That's not the case in Russia and probably several other Orthodox countries
> where Christmas is celebrated on 7th of January.
>
> So I would be offended if I really cared (though I don't).
>

Even more, in Russia we have OLD NEW YEAR which is celebrated on 13th January.
Being buddhist (by nationality) I already celebrated 7th December :)

This discussion is prove that PostgreSQL project is really mature
word-wide project.

>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

     Regards,
         Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

I also have to back up Emily and Tom on this.

Stay neutral when a group is talking to a group.
Individuals should do and say what they think
is best.  But collections imply homogeny when
by definition we are not a homogenous group.

Decrying something as "cough" "politically correct"
is a way to avert the discussion and try to
"win" by ridicule.  This does not work with thinking
people.

I don't see the christmas reference on the public
site so perhaps this has been corrected already.

--elein

On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 11:11:28PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> Emily Boyd <emily@tinysofa.org> writes:
> > There's an easy fix for this: change it to "Happy Holidays" and remove
> > the references to Christmas.
>
> I agree with Emily on this.  There's no need to risk offending people of
> non-Christian faiths.  (Most faiths that I've heard of do have some sort
> of celebration near the winter solstice, so "happy holidays" at this
> time of year isn't going to bother anyone.  Just don't say *which*
> holiday.)
>
>             regards, tom lane
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
>

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, elein wrote:

>
> I also have to back up Emily and Tom on this.
>
> Stay neutral when a group is talking to a group.
> Individuals should do and say what they think
> is best.  But collections imply homogeny when
> by definition we are not a homogenous group.
>
> Decrying something as "cough" "politically correct"
> is a way to avert the discussion and try to
> "win" by ridicule.  This does not work with thinking
> people.

Please note that I wasn't trying to ridicule anyone ... I was only
label'ng an apple appropriately as an apple ... I personally find that the
PC trend towards "lack of labels" to be more offensive then not ... I
celebrate Xmas, and do so proudly ... I have friends that celebrate
Hannukah and Kwanza(sp?) and think that is cool too ... I have men
friends, and women friends, but as far as I know, I don't have any
'gender neutral friends' (and if I did, I'm not sure if I'd want to know
what that exactly entails *grin*) ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664