Обсуждение: Another update on 'portal'
Hi! Uploaded another attempt: http://oc.cs.msu.su/pgorg/ (trailing slash is REQUIRED) Changes since last time: * Docs are shown * gettext() localisation works The source can be d/led: http://oc.cs.msu.su/pgorg.tar.gz Main changes from the CVS version: * HTML is now contained in the template files. * Gettext is used for localization. * Language-specific pages are now named page.html.{code}, this will allow Apache's content negotiation to work on static mirrors * Code optimisations. CVS version did 2*N+1 queries to display the list of N news items, my version does 1 query. See the example of template which is ready for localisation: http://oc.cs.msu.su/pgorg/template/common.html Main advantages (from my POW): * Designers can work on HTML templates without touching anything else * Translators may work on PO files and (static) HTML templates without touching anything else. * Better suited for static mirrors. Things to do yet: * form handling * admin interface This version is about how far I want to go without Some Sort of Discussion and later Official Approval. I don't want to waste any more of my time if the current website is OK with The Important People of PostgreSQL and they just don't want to Bother Changing Anything.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Alexey Borzov [mailto:borz_off@cs.msu.su] > Sent: 13 February 2004 11:08 > To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: [pgsql-www] Another update on 'portal' > > Hi! > > Uploaded another attempt: > http://oc.cs.msu.su/pgorg/ (trailing slash is REQUIRED) OK, looks good - however the trailing / think *must* be fixed before this can be used. > This version is about how far I want to go without Some Sort > of Discussion OK, fair enough. Andreas; what do you think? > and later Official Approval. I don't want to > waste any more of my time if the current website is OK with > The Important People of PostgreSQL and they just don't want > to Bother Changing Anything. Kindly lose the attitude, it's getting tiresome and is not welcome on this list. Regards, Dave
Hi! Dave Page wrote: >>Uploaded another attempt: >>http://oc.cs.msu.su/pgorg/ (trailing slash is REQUIRED) > > OK, looks good - however the trailing / think *must* be fixed before > this can be used. I don't think this is top priority as the final version will be put in the webserver's root... But I'll try to fix this. >>and later Official Approval. I don't want to >>waste any more of my time if the current website is OK with >>The Important People of PostgreSQL and they just don't want >>to Bother Changing Anything. > > Kindly lose the attitude, it's getting tiresome and is not welcome on > this list. Well, my attitude worked once again! I didn't receive any real comments for my previous mail without "the attitude": http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-02/msg00046.php BTW, what's your personal priority: "getting the job done" or "the attitude"?
> -----Original Message----- > From: Alexey Borzov [mailto:borz_off@cs.msu.su] > Sent: 13 February 2004 12:48 > To: Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; webmaster@letzplay.de > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Another update on 'portal' > > Hi! > > Dave Page wrote: > >>Uploaded another attempt: > >>http://oc.cs.msu.su/pgorg/ (trailing slash is REQUIRED) > > > > OK, looks good - however the trailing / think *must* be > fixed before > > this can be used. > > I don't think this is top priority as the final version will > be put in the webserver's root... But I'll try to fix this. You mean it won't be affected by: http://www.postgresql.org vs http://www.postgresql.org/ ? If so, then no, that's not such a priority. > > Well, my attitude worked once again! I didn't receive any > real comments for my previous mail without "the attitude": > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-02/msg00046.php Not really as your previous email is already flagged for followup I just hadn't got to it until today. > BTW, what's your personal priority: "getting the job done" or > "the attitude"? They are not mutually exclusive. Regards, Dave.
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote: > > OK, looks good - however the trailing / think *must* be fixed before > > this can be used. > > I don't think this is top priority as the final version will be put in > the webserver's root... But I'll try to fix this. Agreed here ... > > Kindly lose the attitude, it's getting tiresome and is not welcome on > > this list. > > Well, my attitude worked once again! I didn't receive any real comments > for my previous mail without "the attitude": > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-02/msg00046.php > > BTW, what's your personal priority: "getting the job done" or "the > attitude"? Depends, what if your priority? to alienate anyone whose minds you are trying to change, or getting the job done? :) If getting the job done, lose the attitude ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Hi! Dave Page wrote: >>Well, my attitude worked once again! I didn't receive any >>real comments for my previous mail without "the attitude": >>http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-02/msg00046.php > > > Not really as your previous email is already flagged for followup I just > hadn't got to it until today. Well, it took you almost a week *not* to answer to the previous --- polite --- email and less than an hour to answer to the current one. See my point? I consulted the pgsql-www archives and looked at some other lists and have seen *lots* of polite website suggestions safely and comfortably ignored. Thus the srategy of writing politely definitely does not work with PostgreSQL website team, and I see no real reason to pursue it. BTW, I am a post-graduate, writing a thesis on differential games. This deals with selecting the strategy that works in the situation of uncertainty (one possible source of uncertainty is the actions of other players who may have completely different objectives).
-On [20040214 09:42], Alexey Borzov (borz_off@cs.msu.su) wrote: >Well, it took you almost a week *not* to answer to the previous --- polite >--- email and less than an hour to answer to the current one. See my point? Take this into account: people are not machines. Sending email does not per se mean that a person will respond the same day, let alone the same week. People have lives, both when at work and when at home. You don't know their situation so labelling any 'accusations' against their not responding never works. If not answered within a week, send a small reminder. If then still not, then apply to someone else who can take care of it. Sensible advice to anyone nowadays, at least IMHO. On a related side note: what's with the rush anyway? Life's too short to spend constantly behind computers all day. ;) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / kita no mono PGP fingerprint: 2D92 980E 45FE 2C28 9DB7 9D88 97E6 839B 2EAC 625B http://www.tendra.org/ | http://diary.in-nomine.org/ From the pine tree, learn of the pine tree. And from the bamboo, of the bamboo...
Hi! Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > people are not machines. Sending email does not per se mean that a > person will respond the same day, let alone the same week. People have > lives, both when at work and when at home. > You don't know their situation so labelling any 'accusations' against > their not responding never works. Please re-read my email. There are no accusations, I just pointed out that polite messages get no response, while impolite draw a lot of responses from the same *very busy* people. Your example shows this once again: you didn't comment on the actual code I did, but were ready to chime in with a lesson in style. Wanna draw some conclusions?.. > On a related side note: what's with the rush anyway? Life's too short > to spend constantly behind computers all day. ;) That's precisely the reason I want to get the response as soon as possible, while I'm still *willing* to spend some time behind computer.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Alexey Borzov [mailto:borz_off@cs.msu.su] > Sent: 14 February 2004 08:34 > To: Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Another update on 'portal' > > Well, it took you almost a week *not* to answer to the > previous --- polite --- email and less than an hour to answer > to the current one. See my point? Not really. As I imagine many other ppl do, I set aside time on Fridays to tie up outstanding items. Also like many of us, I have a job, family and studies to worry about as well and don't always have time to answer immediately. > I consulted the pgsql-www archives and looked at some other > lists and have seen > *lots* of polite website suggestions safely and comfortably ignored. Not on pgsql-www I doubt. On other lists maybe, but then, *this* is the web list, not them. > Thus the srategy of writing politely definitely does not work > with PostgreSQL website team, and I see no real reason to > pursue it. The strategy of writing to the right list and being polite does work. The problem is that people do not forget when you annoyed them the week before, so vanishing for a while and then coming back as if nothing happened ain't gonna help. Now, let's get this straight. Polite please from now on, and if no-one responds to a message try a polite 'hey guys, I emailed but no one responded' message. Any further unpleasentness may result in an unsubscription. Now, let's not discuss this any further and get back to developing the website in whatever free time we can find. Regards, Dave.
Hi! Dave Page wrote: > Now, let's get this straight. Polite please from now on, and if no-one > responds to a message try a polite 'hey guys, I emailed but no one > responded' message. Any further unpleasentness may result in an > unsubscription. > > Now, let's not discuss this any further and get back to developing the > website in whatever free time we can find. OK, thanks for another lesson in style. Now back to developing: 1) Have you reviewed the changed 'portal' I posted? 2) Have you downloaded and reviewed the code? 3) What is your opinion? Are you ready to give me CVS access to pgweb and access to development server? 4) Is there any checklist for rolling out the "new" website? 5) Are you familiar with Jakob Nielsen's writings? 6) Do you know any professional web-designers?
It's rumoured that Alexey Borzov once said: > Now back to developing: > 1) Have you reviewed the changed 'portal' I posted? Yes, as I said in my earler reply. > 2) Have you downloaded and reviewed the code? No, I have not had time - that is why I asked Andreas for his opinion. > 3) What is your opinion? Are you ready to give me CVS access to pgweb > and access to development server? No. CVS access and user accounts are only given to people following continued good quality work over a period of time. > 4) Is there any checklist for rolling out the "new" website? No - that depends very much on what is required to rollout any new code. > 5) Are you familiar with Jakob Nielsen's writings? Nope. > 6) Do you know any professional web-designers? Yes. Why? Regards, Dave.
----- Original-Nachricht -----
Von: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
An: <borz_off@cs.msu.su>
CC: <pgsql-www@postgresql.org>
Datum: Saturday, February 14, 2004 04:24 PM
Betreff: development questions (was: Re: [pgsql-www] Another update on 'portal')
> > 2) Have you downloaded and reviewed the code?
>
> No, I have not had time - that is why I asked Andreas for his opinion.
>
> Regards, Dave.
When I saw Alexeys posts, I decided to not answer them - it's difficult for me to have an objective opinion as I simply
don'tlike the way Alexey came in and said "everything you do sucks, what I do is the only right way you can do that".
Thatmakes me think "what the hell does that guy want from us?". However, let me try it.
I have reviewed the code and it looks good - most of it seems to work, much of my code has been optimized.
I can't say if this code is good or this code is bad. He did the changes he stated in his mail, and they seem to work
andthe code techincally looks good (at least better than mine). The question is, do we want to have this changes? I
likethe template usage and the new path format page.html.{ln}. I personally don't like the usage of gettext as for me
thisseems to be overhead - before we had a php file containing all variables, now we have several .po etc. files which
haveto be edited by special software (I think?). All this is just a question of the personal point of view.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Andreas Grabmüller
--
LetzPlay.de
| Freemail: http://www.letzplay.de/mail
| Forenhosting: http://www.letzplay.de/foren
On Saturday 14 February 2004 10:20, Dave Page wrote:
> It's rumoured that Alexey Borzov once said:
> > Now back to developing:
> > 1) Have you reviewed the changed 'portal' I posted?
>
> Yes, as I said in my earler reply.
me too.
>
> > 2) Have you downloaded and reviewed the code?
>
> No, I have not had time - that is why I asked Andreas for his opinion.
me too.
>
> > 3) What is your opinion? Are you ready to give me CVS access to pgweb
> > and access to development server?
>
> No. CVS access and user accounts are only given to people following
> continued good quality work over a period of time.
and people who we know we can work with in a non-abrasive manner.
>
> > 4) Is there any checklist for rolling out the "new" website?
>
> No - that depends very much on what is required to rollout any new code.
Dave, I'm thinking we could probably put his code on a new virtual test
domain, though I'd like to look through the code more before we get to that
step, but it seems like a good next step...
>
> > 5) Are you familiar with Jakob Nielsen's writings?
>
> Nope.
I am. Actually I used to be the user experience advocate for a large recruting
company. I've noticed It's tough to convince developers to go with his
recomendations sometimes :-)
>
> > 6) Do you know any professional web-designers?
>
> Yes. Why?
>
maybe he has money to hire some one? :-)
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > > No - that depends very much on what is required to rollout any new code. > > Dave, I'm thinking we could probably put his code on a new virtual test > domain, though I'd like to look through the code more before we get to that > step, but it seems like a good next step... In preparation for this, Alexey, is there anything that we need to have installed? Specific modules that will be needed? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Hi! Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>Dave, I'm thinking we could probably put his code on a new virtual test >>domain, though I'd like to look through the code more before we get to that >>step, but it seems like a good next step... > > In preparation for this, Alexey, is there anything that we need to have > installed? Specific modules that will be needed? Well, the only thing that comes to mind is that gettext module should be compiled into PHP. Then PEAR should be installed as well (as HTML_Template_Sigma package is used). This can be done locally, but PHP 4.2+ is required nonetheless.
Hi!
Andreas Grabmüller wrote:
> When I saw Alexeys posts, I decided to not answer them - it's difficult for me to have an objective opinion as I
simplydon't like the way Alexey came in and said "everything you do sucks, what I do is the only right way you can do
that".That makes me think "what the hell does that guy want from us?". However, let me try it.
You are unfair to yourself. While the code I inherited could use some
optimisations (and I did optimise some parts of it) I mostly had just to
refactor the existing code, it already worked OK.
> I have reviewed the code and it looks good - most of it seems to work, much of my code has been optimized.
>
> I can't say if this code is good or this code is bad. He did the changes he stated in his mail, and they seem to work
andthe code techincally looks good (at least better than mine). The question is, do we want to have this changes? I
likethe template usage and the new path format page.html.{ln}. I personally don't like the usage of gettext as for me
thisseems to be overhead - before we had a php file containing all variables, now we have several .po etc. files which
haveto be edited by special software (I think?). All this is just a question of the personal point of view.
Yes, it is the matter of taste. The benefit of having .po files instead of .php
files is (like I see it):
1) .po files are generated automatically and thus it is more difficult to have
the translations that are out of sync due to programmer error.
2) It is not difficult to edit the .po files. There is some special software,
but I just used the same PHPEdit to prepare the Russian translation, as if I was
editing the plain text files.
Hi! Robert Treat wrote: >>No. CVS access and user accounts are only given to people following >>continued good quality work over a period of time. > > and people who we know we can work with in a non-abrasive manner. Got the point. ;] >>>4) Is there any checklist for rolling out the "new" website? >> >>No - that depends very much on what is required to rollout any new code. > > Dave, I'm thinking we could probably put his code on a new virtual test > domain, though I'd like to look through the code more before we get to that > step, but it seems like a good next step... Yes, that's exactly what I want right now --- look through my code. >>>5) Are you familiar with Jakob Nielsen's writings? >> >>Nope. > > I am. Actually I used to be the user experience advocate for a large recruting > company. I've noticed It's tough to convince developers to go with his > recomendations sometimes :-) I wanted to know whether the people on this maillist are aware of "usability" stuff. 'Cause unfortunately the current website badly breaks some of the well-respected guidelines. >>>6) Do you know any professional web-designers? >> >>Yes. Why? > > maybe he has money to hire some one? :-) No, I don't. ;] But I think that there are some people on the maillists (or some personal acquaintances) who would be willing to contribute their work for free.
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi! > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >>Dave, I'm thinking we could probably put his code on a new virtual test > >>domain, though I'd like to look through the code more before we get to that > >>step, but it seems like a good next step... > > > > In preparation for this, Alexey, is there anything that we need to have > > installed? Specific modules that will be needed? > > Well, the only thing that comes to mind is that gettext module should be > compiled into PHP. > > Then PEAR should be installed as well (as HTML_Template_Sigma package is used). > This can be done locally, but PHP 4.2+ is required nonetheless. Done ... and we run PHP 4.3.4 w/gettext by default, so you should be okay there also ... t1# pear install HTML_Template_Sigma downloading HTML_Template_Sigma-1.0.2.tgz ... ...done: 25,765 bytes install ok: HTML_Template_Sigma 1.0.2 ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Hi! Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Done ... and we run PHP 4.3.4 w/gettext by default, so you should be okay > there also ... > > t1# pear install HTML_Template_Sigma > downloading HTML_Template_Sigma-1.0.2.tgz ... > ...done: 25,765 bytes > install ok: HTML_Template_Sigma 1.0.2 OK then. Now what should we do: will you give me access to the box or should I prepare the sources for installation and send them to someone?