Обсуждение: How to Sponsor a Feature
Folks, I forgot to post the fact that I'd put up a <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_feature>, per my TODO from the developers' meeting in Ottawa. Sorry about that. Anyhow, Jignesh has come up with a proposal template <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/ProposalTemplate> that could use a once-over, too. Comments? Questions? Brickbats? Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter@gmail.com Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
David Fetter wrote: > Folks, > > I forgot to post the fact that I'd put up a > <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_feature>, per my > TODO from the developers' meeting in Ottawa. Sorry about that. > > Anyhow, Jignesh has come up with a proposal template > <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/ProposalTemplate> that could use a > once-over, too. > > Comments? Questions? Brickbats? > > > Who is the intended audience for this? Many potential sponsors will surely have no idea what CVS tip or context-style diffs are. If we want to help people to sponsor features, then I think we need to deal with subjects like finding someone to undertake the development, the sponsor's relationship with the developer, methods and times of payment, etc. as well as expected interaction with the community on the part of both the sponsor and the developer. cheers andrew
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Andrew Dunstan wrote: > If we want to help people to sponsor features, then I think we need to > deal with subjects like finding someone to undertake the development, > the sponsor's relationship with the developer, methods and times of > payment, etc. The bit on the wiki is helpful for developers trying to get a new feature implemented but I think that's where its scope ends. There seem to be occasional person wandering by here that it really doesn't help though. Periodically you'll see "I want feature $X in PostgreSQL. I'm willing to help fund it. What do I do?". In most of those that have wandered by recently, $X is a known feature any number of other people want. Good sample cases here are recent requests to help fund or implement materialized views, supporting queries on read-only slaves, and SQL window support. I don't think these people need guidance on how to manage the project, they need some sort of way to feel comfortable saying "will pledge $Y for feature $X" in a way that makes sense on both sides. -- * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
Greg Smith wrote: > On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Andrew Dunstan wrote: > >> If we want to help people to sponsor features, then I think we need >> to deal with subjects like finding someone to undertake the >> development, the sponsor's relationship with the developer, methods >> and times of payment, etc. > > The bit on the wiki is helpful for developers trying to get a new > feature implemented but I think that's where its scope ends. > > There seem to be occasional person wandering by here that it really > doesn't help though. Periodically you'll see "I want feature $X in > PostgreSQL. I'm willing to help fund it. What do I do?". In most > of those that have wandered by recently, $X is a known feature any > number of other people want. Good sample cases here are recent > requests to help fund or implement materialized views, supporting > queries on read-only slaves, and SQL window support. > > I don't think these people need guidance on how to manage the > project, they need some sort of way to feel comfortable saying "will > pledge $Y for feature $X" in a way that makes sense on both sides. That's what I thought, too. That page just needs a different title. Best Regards Michael Paesold
Greg Smith wrote: > On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Andrew Dunstan wrote: > >> If we want to help people to sponsor features, then I think we need to >> deal with subjects like finding someone to undertake the development, >> the sponsor's relationship with the developer, methods and times of >> payment, etc. > > The bit on the wiki is helpful for developers trying to get a new feature > implemented but I think that's where its scope ends. We discussed this in the PGCon dev's meeting, and the outcome of the discussion was that we needed to put up a wiki page explaining to those trying to pledge the money what to do and what to expect. David took the first step by writing the page being complained about. If the page doesn't explain what the title says, then the contents of the page needs to be fixed (not the title). -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
On Jun 12, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > Greg Smith wrote: >> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Andrew Dunstan wrote: >> >>> If we want to help people to sponsor features, then I think we >>> need to >>> deal with subjects like finding someone to undertake the >>> development, >>> the sponsor's relationship with the developer, methods and times of >>> payment, etc. >> >> The bit on the wiki is helpful for developers trying to get a new >> feature >> implemented but I think that's where its scope ends. > > We discussed this in the PGCon dev's meeting, and the outcome of the > discussion was that we needed to put up a wiki page explaining to > those > trying to pledge the money what to do and what to expect. David took > the first step by writing the page being complained about. > > If the page doesn't explain what the title says, then the contents of > the page needs to be fixed (not the title). So were there decisions in the dev meeting about how the community wants to handle people wanting to sponsor a project? Do they donate to SPI? Do we have an escrow fund? Do we just point them at one of the "Postgres Companies" and hope they're willing to pay for the whole thing? -- Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect decibel@decibel.org Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828
Decibel! wrote: > So were there decisions in the dev meeting about how the community wants > to handle people wanting to sponsor a project? Do they donate to SPI? Do > we have an escrow fund? Do we just point them at one of the "Postgres > Companies" and hope they're willing to pay for the whole thing? No, there weren't decisions. Donating via SPI is hard because it is a non-profit, and I think someone argued that paying someone to do development could cause trouble on the IRS side of this. I think what this page needs to say is that we are a community-oriented project and thus the prospective sponsor needs to approach a company or individual developer, with an understanding in the fact that even if the patch turns out to work, it could be rejected by the community. This is what was said at the meeting, and I'm surprised that the page is instead talking about how we interact in pgsql-hackers. There was no solution proposed to the escrow problem, nor to allow sponsoring of one feature by multiple independent individuals. Incidentally, we have minutes from the meeting. Is it OK to publish them openly? -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
Decibel! wrote: > On Jun 12, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: >> Greg Smith wrote: >>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Andrew Dunstan wrote: >>> >>>> If we want to help people to sponsor features, then I think we need to >>>> deal with subjects like finding someone to undertake the development, >>>> the sponsor's relationship with the developer, methods and times of >>>> payment, etc. >>> >>> The bit on the wiki is helpful for developers trying to get a new >>> feature >>> implemented but I think that's where its scope ends. >> >> We discussed this in the PGCon dev's meeting, and the outcome of the >> discussion was that we needed to put up a wiki page explaining to those >> trying to pledge the money what to do and what to expect. David took >> the first step by writing the page being complained about. >> >> If the page doesn't explain what the title says, then the contents of >> the page needs to be fixed (not the title). > > So were there decisions in the dev meeting about how the community > wants to handle people wanting to sponsor a project? Do they donate to > SPI? Do we have an escrow fund? Do we just point them at one of the > "Postgres Companies" and hope they're willing to pay for the whole thing? > Who said anything about there being decisions? The only decision made was to create this docvument, AFAIR. cheers andrew
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > Incidentally, we have minutes from the meeting. Is it OK to publish > them openly? There's a set of minutes already up at http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PgCon_2008_Developer_Meeting > There was no solution proposed to the escrow problem, nor to allow > sponsoring of one feature by multiple independent individuals. Pity, as those are the main things I get asked about. I've been thinking about this a fair amount recently, and it is difficult to figure out how SPI can handle this in reasonable way. It almost has to keep a hands-off approach, but the centeral organizers here are where people would think they should come for advice in this area. The best approach I've thought of is to have something like http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support this is instead a catalog of companies and/or associated worker bees who have successfully had submissions commited. Then the only interaction SPI/Core would have is to confirm that the claims people were making about what patches they were involved in were factual, which should be easy enough to verify just with the release notes, while disclaiming any interaction in contracting with said companies/individuals. This implements a meritocracy suggesting who people might work with by noting what areas they've worked in successfully before. For example, the last time I fielded one of these, the person I was advising wanted some PITR work done. I of course pointed them toward 2ndquadrant because everything they asked about was in code Simon wrote in the first place, and some pointers over to the release notes were sufficient to prove that was true. As for a format, I was thinking the directory would be organized like this: Company Person A 8.3 <features involved in> 8.2 <features> Person B 8.2 <features> ... Current/future projects 8.4 add <feature> Eventually add <feature> Nothing new, really, I'm just suggesting an alternate "view" on the data that's available if you know how to look for it, structured in a way that would make it easier for potential sponsors to navigate. -- * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
On Thu, 2008-06-12 at 19:27 -0400, Greg Smith wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, Alvaro Herrera wrote: > > > Incidentally, we have minutes from the meeting. Is it OK to publish > > them openly? > > There's a set of minutes already up at > http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PgCon_2008_Developer_Meeting > > > There was no solution proposed to the escrow problem, nor to allow > > sponsoring of one feature by multiple independent individuals. > > Pity, as those are the main things I get asked about. I've been thinking > about this a fair amount recently, and it is difficult to figure out how > SPI can handle this in reasonable way. SPI can't really at least not for indviduals. It could reasonably do so under the auspice of paying for services, especially if those services can explicitly be tied to the mission of SPI. PGUS and PGEU are probably better suited for this in the future. PGUS for example is going to have the ability to fundraise for grants. A person could then apply for a grant. The grant could be for a TODO item. In reality though, what should happen is we should have a list of companies and consultants that are willing to be paid to implement features, todos and bug fixes. When someone asks they go to a company that they feel comfortable with. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
David Fetter wrote: > I forgot to post the fact that I'd put up a > <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_feature>, per my > TODO from the developers' meeting in Ottawa. This describes how to *develop* a feature, not how to *sponsor* it. I don't think this addresses the issues brought up at the meeting.
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > In reality though, what should happen is we should have a list of > companies and consultants that are willing to be paid to implement > features, todos and bug fixes. I think the professional support company listing is already that list.
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> In reality though, what should happen is we should have a list of >> companies and consultants that are willing to be paid to implement >> features, todos and bug fixes. > > I think the professional support company listing is already that list. It is a much larger superset of that list. There's a lot of entries there that provide support in various ways, but not core code customizations. You cannot expect anyone not already involved in the community to have any idea which of those companies have any track record of getting new features implemented. Maybe all that's needed is to extend the "provides" section there with a tag for those who are willing to take that sort of work on. -- * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
Greg Smith wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > >> Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>> In reality though, what should happen is we should have a list of >>> companies and consultants that are willing to be paid to implement >>> features, todos and bug fixes. >> >> I think the professional support company listing is already that list. > > It is a much larger superset of that list. There's a lot of entries > there that provide support in various ways, but not core code > customizations. You cannot expect anyone not already involved in the > community to have any idea which of those companies have any track > record of getting new features implemented. > > Maybe all that's needed is to extend the "provides" section there with > a tag for those who are willing to take that sort of work on. > > Plus an ability to filter the list on those criteria. I'd also like to see a space for companies to state which PostgreSQL major contributors are working for them. That should be of some assistance to sponsors in picking a development company to deal with. cheers andrew
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:24:28AM +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > David Fetter wrote: > > I forgot to post the fact that I'd put up a > > <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_feature>, per my > > TODO from the developers' meeting in Ottawa. > > This describes how to *develop* a feature, not how to *sponsor* it. > I don't think this addresses the issues brought up at the meeting. It's a wiki. Please feel free to fix any errors I've made :) Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter@gmail.com Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> In reality though, what should happen is we should have a list of >> companies and consultants that are willing to be paid to implement >> features, todos and bug fixes. > > I think the professional support company listing is already that list. Unfortunately not, there are very few companies that have shown an ability to work with the community for such a thing. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
Andrew Dunstan wrote: > > Plus an ability to filter the list on those criteria. I'd also like to > see a space for companies to state which PostgreSQL major contributors > are working for them. That should be of some assistance to sponsors in > picking a development company to deal with. +1 Joshua D. Drake
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > David Fetter wrote: >> I forgot to post the fact that I'd put up a >> <http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_feature>, per my >> TODO from the developers' meeting in Ottawa. > > This describes how to *develop* a feature, not how to *sponsor* it. I don't > think this addresses the issues brought up at the meeting. Peter is right. Regards, Oleg _____________________________________________________________ Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru), Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
On Sunday 15 June 2008 23:01:16 Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Andrew Dunstan wrote:
> > Plus an ability to filter the list on those criteria. I'd also like to
> > see a space for companies to state which PostgreSQL major contributors
> > are working for them. That should be of some assistance to sponsors in
> > picking a development company to deal with.
>
> +1
>
Under CMD's listing I see the following:
"They are one of the most prolific of community supporters with over 50% of
their staff recognized PostgreSQL community members."
ISTM somewhere between the description and the experience pieces, you have
plenty of ways to list your contributors. Also, don't forget we allow
contributors to list companies next to thier names if they so desire.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL