Обсуждение: Pgfoundry and gborg: shut one down

Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.

Just before shutting it off, we should dump the existing project
information to an FTP directory so it can be reclaimed as needed.

--  Bruce Momjian   http://candle.pha.pa.us SRA OSS, Inc.   http://www.sraoss.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.
> 
> Just before shutting it off, we should dump the existing project
> information to an FTP directory so it can be reclaimed as needed.
> 

I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and offered my help 
in the process, claiming that the CVS repository and the mailing list are what really 
matters. I'd be fairly upset if gborg was shut down without that happening. FTP archive or not.

Kind Regards,
Thomas Hallgren

Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
>> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
>> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.

> I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and offered my help 
> in the process,

Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
their heads.
        regards, tom lane

On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 09:31:18AM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.

Well, first you need to mark one as deprecated. Looking at both sites I
don't see anything indicating that either is to be preferred. You can
still sign up to both of them. How is one to know a migration is
expected?

Secondly, say I have a project to migrate, what next? Googling for
"gborg migration" doesn't bring up anything useful.

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
> projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
> their heads.
>   
Well that is not exactly true. We have been encouraging gborg projects
to move for at least a year.

What we haven't done is provided an easy means to do so.

But frankly after seeing, working on and with pgFoundry I don't think
pushing them there is a good choice either.

Documentation is very sparse, bugs are rampant and I don't want to even 
consider
the possible security issues involved with it.

That being said, as an inclusive solution there really isn't anything else
out there :(

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake





>             regards, tom lane
>
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Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
>> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
>> projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
>> their heads.
>>   
>
> Well that is not exactly true. We have been encouraging gborg projects
> to move for at least a year.
>
> What we haven't done is provided an easy means to do so.
>
> But frankly after seeing, working on and with pgFoundry I don't think
> pushing them there is a good choice either.
>
> Documentation is very sparse, bugs are rampant and I don't want to 
> even consider
> the possible security issues involved with it.
>
> That being said, as an inclusive solution there really isn't anything 
> else
> out there :(
>
>

I think that's overstating it a bit (even though I know you held back 
;-) ). We have stomped on most of the significant bugs that have arisen 
from our implementation, and gotten some fixes from upstream too. We do 
have a couple of GForge devs who help us out. We have in fact been 
pretty careful about security issues.

Frankly, what we need is someone with enough dedicated time and drive to 
push the migration through. Ideally that would be someone who could work 
fulltime for the several weeks I suspect a complete migration would 
take. Unfortunately, I don't know of such a resource.

If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with 
PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available, SVN 
as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in excellent 
shape.

I'd rather move forwards than back.

cheers

andrew

Tom Lane wrote:
> Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
> >> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
> >> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.
> 
> > I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and offered my help 
> > in the process,
> 
> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
> projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
> their heads.

If we don't push folks, nothing will happen, which is what has happened
for years now.  Let's set a date and tell people to move, or else.
Keeping our stuff split like this is not helping us.

--  Bruce Momjian   http://candle.pha.pa.us SRA OSS, Inc.   http://www.sraoss.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Andrew Dunstan wrote:
> If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with 
> PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available, SVN 
> as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in excellent 
> shape.
> 
> I'd rather move forwards than back.

I don't care what direction we go, just kill one.  We are at the
"dancing bear" stage with this thing, like we were with the web site
redesign: 

[ old posting ]
> > > We have been talking about a new web page layout for years at this
> > > point.  I almost don't care if they just put a dancing bear up on the
> > > web site.  Let's do something!
> > 
> > What's wrong with the existing one?  Have you designed the dancing bear 
> > you'd like us to put up in place of what we have now?
> 
> Looking around now.  Perhaps a dancing elephant.  WARNING:  This will
> make you ill:
> 
>     http://janetskiles.com/ART/greeting/greet-ani/dancing-elephant.jpg

That URL is priceless, and perhaps instead of shutting down the old
server, we should just put this up on there to shame people into moving.

Anyway, it is time to do something, and doing "anything" is starting to
look good.  I think I even have some stuff on gborg and would move it if
there was a push to do that, so I know from experience that a deadline
is what it is going to take.

--  Bruce Momjian   http://candle.pha.pa.us SRA OSS, Inc.   http://www.sraoss.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
> If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
> PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available,
> SVN as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in
> excellent shape.

Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
*That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
project...
-- 
wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','gmail.com').
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/slony.html
"...In my phone conversation with Microsoft's lawyer I copped to the
fact that just maybe his client might see me as having been in the
past just a bit critical of their products and business
practices. This was too bad, he said with a sigh, because they were
having a very hard time finding a reporter who both knew the industry
well enough to be called an expert and who hadn't written a negative
article about Microsoft." -- Robert X. Cringely

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
>> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> >> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
>> >> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
>> >> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.
>> 
>> > I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and offered my help 
>> > in the process,
>> 
>> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
>> projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
>> their heads.
>
> If we don't push folks, nothing will happen, which is what has happened
> for years now.  Let's set a date and tell people to move, or else.
> Keeping our stuff split like this is not helping us.

Be sure there's a carrot as well as the stick...

pgFoundry does generally look more featureful, which is a good thing.
A choice of CVS and SVN would be a bigger carrot...
-- 
output = reverse("moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc")
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/internet.html
"We English-speaking peoples should   keep hold of the essential  fact
about foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh."
-- John Derbyshire

Christopher Browne wrote:
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
>   
>> If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
>> PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available,
>> SVN as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in
>> excellent shape.
>>     
>
> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
> project...
>   
SVN is actually on pgFoundry and Apache is ready to allow webdav
connections. What doesn't work is the integration with pgFoundry/Gforge.

Joshua D. Drake



-- 
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Christopher Browne wrote:
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
> > If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
> > PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available,
> > SVN as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in
> > excellent shape.
> 
> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
> project...

This is not "get everything everyone wants before shutting down a site"
time.  We should move to one site, and if the new site is not to
someone's liking, there is always sourceforge and other hosting sites.

--  Bruce Momjian   http://candle.pha.pa.us SRA OSS, Inc.   http://www.sraoss.com
 + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

> This is not "get everything everyone wants before shutting down a site"
> time.  We should move to one site, and if the new site is not to
> someone's liking, there is always sourceforge and other hosting sites.
>   
I do agree with Bruce here but... we need to make sure that
we give everyone their data. If Gborg does CVS like Gforge
we may have a problem in that there is only one cvs repository.

Joshua D. Drake


-- 
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> 
>>Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
>>
>>>Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>>
>>>>Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
>>>>have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
>>>>let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.
>>
>>>I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and offered my help 
>>>in the process,
>>
>>Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
>>projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
>>their heads.
> 
> 
> If we don't push folks, nothing will happen, which is what has happened
> for years now.  Let's set a date and tell people to move, or else.
> Keeping our stuff split like this is not helping us.
> 

Slowly disabling things is also an option to encourage people to move, 
while not ending up with a huge number of projects trying to move in the 
same week.

Disabling the ability to create new accounts and projects will tell both 
existing and new people that this is not the place to be going forward.  If you need a new developer or project, you
needto put in the effort 
 
to move your project.

Disabling the ability to upload files will make people create a project 
on PgFoundry when they make a new releases, putting more pressure on to 
move across.

Even with the above two items changed, it would soon encourage people to 
move, or at least create a project on PgFoundry and move there file 
releases there.  CVS and mailing lists will need to be moved by admins, 
but that process doesn't need to be done in a single day.  It creates 
more operational overhead for each project in the short term, but that 
will continue to push them to migrate.

Who are the people who can help move projects across and how can they be 
contacted?  Maybe posting some news items on gborg about it would 
encourage people.  Having the people who can help available to assist 
people to move will mean that more projects are likely too.

I agree dates need to be made, not necessarily about the total shutdown, 
but feature removal dates will mean people are much more likely to 
"want" to move.

Regards

Russell Smith

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006, Christopher Browne wrote:

> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
>> If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
>> PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available,
>> SVN as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in
>> excellent shape.
>
> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
> project...

SVN is installed on the pgFoundry server, but I think getting pgFoundry to 
use it got stalled somewhere along the way ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

>>
>> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
>> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
>> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
>> project...
>
> SVN is installed on the pgFoundry server, but I think getting 
> pgFoundry to use it got stalled somewhere along the way ...
Yes.. I called no joy after finding a complete lack of documentation on 
integrating it. See the archives :)

Joshua D. Drake

>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services 
> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 
> 7615664
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
>               http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq


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On Sat, 18 Feb 2006, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
>>> 
>>> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
>>> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
>>> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
>>> project...
>> 
>> SVN is installed on the pgFoundry server, but I think getting pgFoundry to 
>> use it got stalled somewhere along the way ...
> Yes.. I called no joy after finding a complete lack of documentation on 
> integrating it. See the archives :)

Ya, I know ... just wasn't pointing any fingers >:)

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006, Thomas Hallgren wrote:

> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
>> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
>> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.
>> 
>> Just before shutting it off, we should dump the existing project
>> information to an FTP directory so it can be reclaimed as needed.
>> 
>
> I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and 
> offered my help in the process, claiming that the CVS repository and the 
> mailing list are what really matters. I'd be fairly upset if gborg was shut 
> down without that happening. FTP archive or not.

gBorg won't be just shut down until its ready to happen, don't worry about 
that ... I've sent you a private email about migration, and will follow 
up with you as soon as I've been able to look into the database migration 
aspect ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, jd@commandprompt.com ("Joshua D. Drake") transmitted:
>>>
>>> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
>>> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
>>> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
>>> project...
>>
>> SVN is installed on the pgFoundry server, but I think getting
>> pgFoundry to use it got stalled somewhere along the way ...
> Yes.. I called no joy after finding a complete lack of documentation
> on integrating it. See the archives :)

Ah, fair enough.  It probably makes sense to start arguing again about
what to do about pgFoundry on the Slony-I list...

I have some time again to get on with some Slony-I work after things
had gotten a bit nuts in other areas, between a new TLD grabbing all
my time, and then the personal matter of my father undergoing (happily
successful) cancer surgery.  I think I had a client connect to the IRC
channel for about a week and a bit of not being around to watch it
:-(.

Anyway, it probably makes some sense to move Slony-I over some time
soon.
-- 
select 'cbbrowne' || '@' || 'acm.org';
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/lisp.html
"Implying that you    can build systems  without  rigourous  interface
specification is always a powerful selling technique to the clueless."
-- Paul Campbell, seen in comp.object.corba

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>>
>> I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to 
>> pgfoundry and offered my help in the process, claiming that the CVS 
>> repository and the mailing list are what really matters. I'd be 
>> fairly upset if gborg was shut down without that happening. FTP 
>> archive or not.
>
> gBorg won't be just shut down until its ready to happen, don't worry 
> about that ... I've sent you a private email about migration, and will 
> follow up with you as soon as I've been able to look into the database 
> migration aspect ...
>
I'm happy with that, as long as everyone understands that:

- Migrating my CVS and mailing-lists is not something I can do by myself
- My project is alive and would take a serious hit if the upload 
functionality was disabled
- Being ridiculed by displaying dancing elephants on GBorg wouldn't 
exactly be honoring my efforts

I could move everything all by myself I would have done so a long time 
ago. Extra 'motivation' is not necessary.

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Thomas Hallgren wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry 
>>> and offered my help in the process, claiming that the CVS repository and 
>>> the mailing list are what really matters. I'd be fairly upset if gborg was 
>>> shut down without that happening. FTP archive or not.
>> 
>> gBorg won't be just shut down until its ready to happen, don't worry about 
>> that ... I've sent you a private email about migration, and will follow up 
>> with you as soon as I've been able to look into the database migration 
>> aspect ...
>> 
> I'm happy with that, as long as everyone understands that:
>
> - Migrating my CVS and mailing-lists is not something I can do by myself
> - My project is alive and would take a serious hit if the upload 
> functionality was disabled
> - Being ridiculed by displaying dancing elephants on GBorg wouldn't exactly 
> be honoring my efforts

None of the above will happen, I can assure you ... or, at least, the 
second two ... the first one we'll work on ... I'm just looking into some 
things right now ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org on behalf of Joshua D. Drake
Sent: Sun 2/19/2006 12:35 AM
To: Bruce Momjian
Cc: Christopher Browne; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Pgfoundry and gborg: shut one down

> This is not "get everything everyone wants before shutting down a site"
> time.  We should move to one site, and if the new site is not to
> someone's liking, there is always sourceforge and other hosting sites.
>
> > I do agree with Bruce here but... we need to make sure that
> > we give everyone their data. If Gborg does CVS like Gforge
> > we may have a problem in that there is only one cvs repository.

Moving CVS is not a problem - each project has their own repo on both systems. The problem is moving all the database
stuffsuch as the bug trackers and todo lists, for which I'm told there are no working scripts. 

The other one that caused me great pain when I moved psqlODBC over was the GBorg genpages. I ended up manually pulling
thecode out of them and into plain HTML files as there is no equivalent area on pgFoundry. 

FWIW, in both the moves I have done (psqlODBC and Npgsql), only the CVS was actually moved.

Regards, Dave

Dave Page wrote:
> 
> Moving CVS is not a problem - each project has their own repo on both systems. The problem is moving all the database
stuffsuch as the bug trackers and todo lists, for which I'm told there are no working scripts.
 
> 
> The other one that caused me great pain when I moved psqlODBC over was the GBorg genpages. I ended up manually
pullingthe code out of them and into plain HTML files as there is no equivalent area on pgFoundry.
 
> 
> FWIW, in both the moves I have done (psqlODBC and Npgsql), only the CVS was actually moved.
>
Perhaps that's the general solution. Forget about the database, genpages etc. and ask 
respective project administrators to move them manually? The two really important things are 
the CVS and the mailing-list.

On my part, It'd be sufficient if those two where moved. My html content stems from my CVS 
and I plan to restructure it a bit anyway. My bug-tracking can be moved manually if need be.

I too would be happy if I could somehow migrate to SVN but that can be done later.

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren

FYI - as a positive enhancement, Greenplum donated a beefy server to host
pgFoundry.

- Luke


On 2/18/06 10:34 AM, "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:

> Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>> Having run had both pgfoundary and gborg for several years, I think we
>>> have to conclude that any clean migration is never going to happen, so
>>> let's just pick a server and announce date, and shut one of them off.
> 
>> I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and
>> offered my help
>> in the process,
> 
> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
> projects to move.  I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
> their heads.
> 
>                         regards, tom lane
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
> 
>                http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
> 
> 

On Sun, February 19, 2006 05:10, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I don't care what direction we go, just kill one.

Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list. 
Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists to
pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?


Jeroen

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, Jeroen T. Vermeulen wrote:

> On Sun, February 19, 2006 05:10, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>> I don't care what direction we go, just kill one.
>
> Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list.
> Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
> forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists to
> pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?

All addresses would have to be changed to the pgfoundry.org one ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Mon, February 20, 2006 11:00, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>> Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list.
>> Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
>> forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists
>> to
>> pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?
>
> All addresses would have to be changed to the pgfoundry.org one ...

Ouch!  Moving my project off GBorg wasn't so hard, but forcing all mailing
list subscribers to move to a different address does hurt.

If the same goes for many other projects on there, wouldn't it be possible
to move all mail handling for gborg.postgresql.org over to pgFoundry at
once, but preserve the domain name and list names?  It may help people
make the jump if mailing list migration could be decoupled from the other
changes.


Jeroen

On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 02:49:30PM +0700, Jeroen T. Vermeulen wrote:
> On Mon, February 20, 2006 11:00, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> >> Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list.
> >> Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
> >> forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists
> >> to
> >> pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?
> >
> > All addresses would have to be changed to the pgfoundry.org one ...
> 
> Ouch!  Moving my project off GBorg wasn't so hard, but forcing all mailing
> list subscribers to move to a different address does hurt.
> 
> If the same goes for many other projects on there, wouldn't it be possible
> to move all mail handling for gborg.postgresql.org over to pgFoundry at
> once, but preserve the domain name and list names?  It may help people
> make the jump if mailing list migration could be decoupled from the other
> changes.

Actually, it should be entirely possible to setup forwarding for
projects as they migrate, one-by-one. AFAIK mailman will handle
something like project-blah@gbork.org being forwarded to
project-blah@pgfoundry.org.
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jim C. Nasby wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 02:49:30PM +0700, Jeroen T. Vermeulen wrote:
>> On Mon, February 20, 2006 11:00, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>>
>>>> Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list.
>>>> Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
>>>> forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists
>>>> to
>>>> pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?
>>>
>>> All addresses would have to be changed to the pgfoundry.org one ...
>>
>> Ouch!  Moving my project off GBorg wasn't so hard, but forcing all mailing
>> list subscribers to move to a different address does hurt.
>>
>> If the same goes for many other projects on there, wouldn't it be possible
>> to move all mail handling for gborg.postgresql.org over to pgFoundry at
>> once, but preserve the domain name and list names?  It may help people
>> make the jump if mailing list migration could be decoupled from the other
>> changes.
>
> Actually, it should be entirely possible to setup forwarding for
> projects as they migrate, one-by-one. AFAIK mailman will handle
> something like project-blah@gbork.org being forwarded to
> project-blah@pgfoundry.org.

Woo hoo ... a mailman expert ... let us know how it is done so that we can 
do it :)

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 01:11:46PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> >Actually, it should be entirely possible to setup forwarding for
> >projects as they migrate, one-by-one. AFAIK mailman will handle
> >something like project-blah@gbork.org being forwarded to
> >project-blah@pgfoundry.org.
> 
> Woo hoo ... a mailman expert ... let us know how it is done so that we can 
> do it :)

To test this, I created test@lists.decibel.org
http://lists.decibel.org/mailman/listinfo/test

In postfix, I setup the following in main.cf:
virtual_alias_maps = hash:/usr/local/etc/postfix/virtuals/virtual,                   ....
regexp:/usr/local/etc/postfix/virtuals-regex/decibel.org,

where virtuals-regex/decibel.org contains:

# commands
/^(test)-(post|admin|bounces|confirm|join|leave|owner|request|subscribe|unsubscribe)@nasby.net$/ mailman-$2+$1

# lists (command -post)
/^(test)@nasby.net$/ mailman-post+$1

(yeah, I flubbed the file name... oh well...)

I can now post, subscribe, or issue any commands by sending email to
test@nasby.net  or test-blah@nasby.net.

Feel free to subscribe and test for yourself. While this forwarding
implimentation is obviously postfix-specific, the point is that as long
as the email eventually makes it to the proper list addresses, that's
all that mailman cares about.

So, is there a formal project setup anywhere for the migration? ISTM
that it would be best to create a project on either gborg or pgfoundry
with the intention that it produce a set of code/scripts/procedures that
allow for migrating projects from gborg to pgfoundry, since obviously
moving lists over is a minor portion of the effort.
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jim C. Nasby wrote:

> So, is there a formal project setup anywhere for the migration? ISTM 
> that it would be best to create a project on either gborg or pgfoundry 
> with the intention that it produce a set of code/scripts/procedures that 
> allow for migrating projects from gborg to pgfoundry, since obviously 
> moving lists over is a minor portion of the effort.

Actually, we've even got a prelim script setup for moving teh database 
that I have to spend some time testing, after which we can start moving 
...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 04:26:27PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> 
> >So, is there a formal project setup anywhere for the migration? ISTM 
> >that it would be best to create a project on either gborg or pgfoundry 
> >with the intention that it produce a set of code/scripts/procedures that 
> >allow for migrating projects from gborg to pgfoundry, since obviously 
> >moving lists over is a minor portion of the effort.
> 
> Actually, we've even got a prelim script setup for moving teh database 
> that I have to spend some time testing, after which we can start moving 
> ...

Well, there's more than that. You'd need to move the actual mailman list
(though afaik that shouldn't be very hard; one issue is that you'd want
to shut mailman and probably the MTA down while a list is being moved).
What about files? Is there anything else?

I suggest setting up a project on pgfoundry and putting scripts there,
especially since some of this stuff can be figured out without access to
the actual environments (ie: a script to transfer a mailman list).

I know we've got a test copy of pgfoundry setup; do we have a test copy
of gborg somewhere as well?
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461