Обсуждение: recent Gartner's publication

It looks like Gartner took the easy way out and excluded open source
databases entirely.  Unless the is a company backing the "product", i.e.
someone to fill out their RFI, they couldn't be bothered to do full
research on the state of popular DBMS's.

I absolutely think the record should be set straight on who and how
features are developed for PostgreSQL.  Laziness is not an excuse for
incorrect attribution.

Regards,

Bob Lunney

Sent from my PDP11

On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't like this about EDB:

*Community leadership: *EnterpriseDB is the primary contributor to the
Postgres community, and responsible for recent features such as JSON
support ....

Am I right and "recent features such as JSON support" means our (me, Teodor
Sigaev <https://www.facebook.com/teodor.sigaev>, Andrew Dunstan
<https://www.facebook.com/andrew.m.dunstan>, Alexander Korotkov
<https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000478132817>, Peter Geoghegan)
work on jsonb ?  If so, should we ask Gartner to correct this ?


http://www.gartner.com/technology/reprints.do?id=1-2PMFPEN&ct=151013&st=sb

Regards,
Oleg

On 10/14/2015 11:38 AM, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
> I don't like this about EDB:
>
> *Community leadership: *EnterpriseDB is the primary contributor to the
> Postgres community, and responsible for recent features such as JSON
> support ....
>
> Am I right and "recent features such as JSON support" means our (me,
> Teodor Sigaev <https://www.facebook.com/teodor.sigaev>, Andrew Dunstan
> <https://www.facebook.com/andrew.m.dunstan>, Alexander Korotkov
> <https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000478132817>, Peter
> Geoghegan) work on jsonb ?  If so, should we ask Gartner to correct this ?
>
>
> http://www.gartner.com/technology/reprints.do?id=1-2PMFPEN&ct=151013&st=sb

JSON was primarily developed by Robert Haas.

Gartner reports are generally sponsored so I doubt we could get them to
change their marketing material anyway.

JD

>
> Regards,
> Oleg


--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
New rule for social situations: "If you think to yourself not even
JD would say this..." Stop and shut your mouth. It's going to be bad.

On 10/14/2015 02:44 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 10/14/2015 11:38 AM, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
>> I don't like this about EDB:
>>
>> *Community leadership: *EnterpriseDB is the primary contributor to the
>> Postgres community, and responsible for recent features such as JSON
>> support ....
>>
>> Am I right and "recent features such as JSON support" means our (me,
>> Teodor Sigaev <https://www.facebook.com/teodor.sigaev>, Andrew Dunstan
>> <https://www.facebook.com/andrew.m.dunstan>, Alexander Korotkov
>> <https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000478132817>, Peter
>> Geoghegan) work on jsonb ?  If so, should we ask Gartner to correct
>> this ?
>>
>>
>> http://www.gartner.com/technology/reprints.do?id=1-2PMFPEN&ct=151013&st=sb
>>
>
> JSON was primarily developed by Robert Haas.

Except for et al(AD,TL,...) :


http://git.postgresql.org/gitweb/?p=postgresql.git;a=blame;f=src/backend/utils/adt/json.c;h=f394942bc359b73068c2bf3a2a514758ecf5c957;hb=HEAD

>
> Gartner reports are generally sponsored so I doubt we could get them to
> change their marketing material anyway.
>
> JD
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Oleg
>
>


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com

I don't like this about EDB:

Community leadership: EnterpriseDB is the primary contributor to the Postgres community, and responsible for recent features such as JSON support ....

Am I right and "recent features such as JSON support" means our (me, Teodor Sigaev, Andrew Dunstan, Alexander Korotkov, Peter Geoghegan) work on jsonb ?  If so, should we ask Gartner to correct this ?

http://www.gartner.com/technology/reprints.do?id=1-2PMFPEN&ct=151013&st=sb

Regards,

Oleg

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't like this about EDB:
>
> Community leadership: EnterpriseDB is the primary contributor to the
> Postgres community, and responsible for recent features such as JSON support
> ....
>
> Am I right and "recent features such as JSON support" means our (me, Teodor
> Sigaev, Andrew Dunstan, Alexander Korotkov, Peter Geoghegan) work on jsonb ?
> If so, should we ask Gartner to correct this ?

Of course not.  As JD points out, it refers to me having developed the
original version of the JSON parser.  At some point (a long time ago),
I was asked about what EnterpriseDB employees have contributed to the
community, and that's one of the things I mentioned.  It's not the
only thing I mentioned, and it's not in my opinion the most important
thing I've done in the last 5 years, but that's what they picked.
Lots of other people have done great work in that area since then, far
exceeding my original contribution.  I can take credit only for
getting it off the ground.

The bit about "partitioning" seems like an outright mistake.  I'm
almost sure that's referring to one of EDB's proprietary features, not
anything community-related.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 10/14/2015 02:54 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:
> On 10/14/2015 02:44 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>>
>> JSON was primarily developed by Robert Haas.
>
> Except for et al(AD,TL,...) :

The release notes state Robert Haas. If that isn't accurate, shrug.

JD



--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
New rule for social situations: "If you think to yourself not even
JD would say this..." Stop and shut your mouth. It's going to be bad.

On Oct 15, 2015 04:40, "Robert Haas" <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't like this about EDB:
> >
> > Community leadership: EnterpriseDB is the primary contributor to the
> > Postgres community, and responsible for recent features such as JSON support
> > ....
> >
> > Am I right and "recent features such as JSON support" means our (me, Teodor
> > Sigaev, Andrew Dunstan, Alexander Korotkov, Peter Geoghegan) work on jsonb ?
> > If so, should we ask Gartner to correct this ?
>
> Of course not.  As JD points out, it refers to me having developed the
> original version of the JSON parser.  At some point (a long time ago),
> I was asked about what EnterpriseDB employees have contributed to the
> community, and that's one of the things I mentioned.  It's not the
> only thing I mentioned, and it's not in my opinion the most important
> thing I've done in the last 5 years, but that's what they picked.
> Lots of other people have done great work in that area since then, far
> exceeding my original contribution.  I can take credit only for
> getting it off the ground.

Well, if "recent" here is not 9.4, then you're right.  Still looks slyish, though.

>
> The bit about "partitioning" seems like an outright mistake.  I'm
> almost sure that's referring to one of EDB's proprietary features, not
> anything community-related.

Yes, "recent" here is very funny. 

>
> --
> Robert Haas
> EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

On 10/14/2015 06:48 PM, Oleg Bartunov wrote:

> Well, if "recent" here is not 9.4, then you're right.  Still looks
> slyish, though.

Keep in mind that a gartner report is two things:

1. Marketing
2. Marketing

They aren't going to try and explain the difference between JSON or
JSONB. Heck, nobody is, people are interested in "JSON" not the
technical improvement "JSONB".

So in terms of recent, 9.2 with JSON support makes sense. It is also
still the "buzzword" that everyone is looking for.

jD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
New rule for social situations: "If you think to yourself not even
JD would say this..." Stop and shut your mouth. It's going to be bad.

All,

If Gartner gets even half the information correct, I feel pretty good
about it.


--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com

On 10/14/2015 08:10 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> All,
>
> If Gartner gets even half the information correct, I feel pretty good
> about it.

+1


--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 08:38:06PM -0700, Joshua Drake wrote:
> On 10/14/2015 08:10 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> >All,
> >
> >If Gartner gets even half the information correct, I feel pretty good
> >about it.
>
> +1

Kevin Grittner saw Oleg's original post and started a discussion inside
EDB.  Although some EDB staff read the report before, no one realized
its inaccuracies or possible misinterpretations.  EDB will work with
Gartner to try to get the current report, or next year's report,
improved.  They are not certain of success, but they will try.

--
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+ Roman grave inscription                             +

16 octobre 2015 09:42 "Gabriele Bartolini" <gabriele.bartolini@2ndquadrant.it> a écrit:
> Hi guys,
>
> Do you think it could be possible/worth for the Community to take a step forward in order to have
> "PostgreSQL" in Gartner's magic quadrant?
>

Is it worth it ?

As far as I can tell in France this thing as no impact at all. There are some journalists that may talk about it from
timeto time, but otherwise I've never seen anyone making a reference to that ranking and I'm pretty sure it has no
effecton the people here. Maybe it's different in other countries though... 

On 10/16/2015 07:17 AM, damien@dalibo.info wrote:
> 16 octobre 2015 09:42 "Gabriele Bartolini" <gabriele.bartolini@2ndquadrant.it> a écrit:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Do you think it could be possible/worth for the Community to take a step forward in order to have
>> "PostgreSQL" in Gartner's magic quadrant?
>>
>
> Is it worth it ?
>
> As far as I can tell in France this thing as no impact at all. There are some journalists that may talk about it from
timeto time, but otherwise I've never seen anyone making a reference to that ranking and I'm pretty sure it has no
effecton the people here. Maybe it's different in other countries though... 

It isn't worth it. Leave the sticky business to the kids with the VC
funded candy.

JD


>
>


--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
New rule for social situations: "If you think to yourself not even
JD would say this..." Stop and shut your mouth. It's going to be bad.

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Hash: SHA1

Am 16.10.2015 um 16:17 schrieb damien@dalibo.info:
> 16 octobre 2015 09:42 "Gabriele Bartolini"
> <gabriele.bartolini@2ndquadrant.it> a écrit:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Do you think it could be possible/worth for the Community to take
>> a step forward in order to have "PostgreSQL" in Gartner's magic
>> quadrant?
>>
>
> Is it worth it ?
>
> As far as I can tell in France this thing as no impact at all.
> There are some journalists that may talk about it from time to
> time, but otherwise I've never seen anyone making a reference to
> that ranking and I'm pretty sure it has no effect on the people
> here. Maybe it's different in other countries though...

Uhm, well, I sent a link to an online article (by some EDB staff)
mentioning this very Gartner study to one of my managers the other
day, and both are now circling in the upper management, AFAIK.

As much as I don't like what Gartner do (esp. in this case), large
companies' managements seem to adore them, and it _can_ have impact.

As a sidenote: it is pretty typical that Gartner rather features an
american, VC-backed (correct me if I'm wrong) company instead of a
community as a whole... afterall, part of Gartner's customers are
_also_ looking for investment opportunities, or they seek to get
"support straight from the source".
"... is the major contributor to XYZ" or "... is the company behind
the popular open source product XYZ". That's wording those people know
from the past & present (MySQL AB, Hortonworks, Datastax, <endless
list here>,...), so they _think_ they understand the "business model"
of Postgres.

And I can't really blame EDB that they've not set that straight right
away. It would probably be very tedious to explain it to Gartner in
the first place, it's absolutely not too far away from the truth (are
there any reasonable statistics?!?), it's more or less only marketing,
and it certainly is a very good marketing instrument for _approaching_
potential PAS customers (i.e., those with loads of Oracle and a
somewhat larger management structure).

Just my 2(€)c.
- --
Gunnar "Nick" Bluth
RHCE/SCLA

Mobil +49 172 8853339
Email: gunnar.bluth@pro-open.de
_____________________________________________________________
In 1984 mainstream users were choosing VMS over UNIX.
Ten years later they are choosing Windows over UNIX.
What part of that message aren't you getting? - Tom Payne

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On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 09:42:06AM +0200, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
>   Do you think it could be possible/worth for the Community to take a step
> forward in order to have "PostgreSQL" in Gartner's magic quadrant?

Yes, I wanted to address that, but not in my "corrections" email.

I think there are a few factors.  Here is a list:

*  I am glad the inaccuracies were inside the EnterpriseDB section, and
not at the top of the article, where they usually are.

*  There is some text that explains that their ranking evaluates all the
products of a company as a whole, meaning they probably don't even think
of Postgres as an offering that is separate from EnterpriseDB --- they
are just not set up to evaluate things in that way.

*  I think they are used to studying open source/commercial hybrids in
the MySQL/MongoDB/Ingres model, where the company controls the
development.  They do understand our setup based on their comments, but
they are seeing it as a modified MySQL/MongoDB/Ingres model, not as a
totally new one, more similar to RedHat.

*  They are not used to open source offerings as being a stand-alone
useful product, e.g. Linux is a kernel, not a deployable solution ---
you need a packager like Debian or RedHat.  In fact, EDB is like RedHat
in that they contribute to an open source project with many other
companies as peers, but they are different in that the open source
project itself is a deployable option, which the Linux kernel is not.
This subtlety is often not well understood.

*  Gartner focuses on whole-solution offerings, e.g training, support,
which the community does not have as a commercial offering.  We have
free support, but no SLA, for example.

*  In my opinion, they are focused on money-making enterprises, which
the community is not.

In summary, I would love to see a Postgres category on there, and would
love to see Postgres as a pin on that chart, but it seems like a
difficult goal unless their approach to open source dramatically
changes.

--
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+ Roman grave inscription                             +

On 10/16/2015 08:05 AM, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> *  In my opinion, they are focused on money-making enterprises, which
> the community is not.
>
> In summary, I would love to see a Postgres category on there, and would
> love to see Postgres as a pin on that chart, but it seems like a
> difficult goal unless their approach to open source dramatically
> changes.

If I remember correctly from years past when I paid any attention
whatsoever to Gartner, they primarily (only?) analyze companies/products
that spend money with *them*, and lots of it. If we wanted to get
PostgreSQL on their radar, it would be very expensive to do so
unless/until they drastically change the way they pick the dots to place
on their quad charts. And it is sad, but true, that lots of large
enterprises put so much stock into what is essentially nothing more than
a marketing channel (hence the preponderance of large companies and
those with VC funding).

Joe

On 10/16/2015 08:24 AM, Joe Conway wrote:
> If I remember correctly from years past when I paid any attention
> whatsoever to Gartner, they primarily (only?) analyze companies/products
> that spend money with *them*, and lots of it. If we wanted to get
> PostgreSQL on their radar, it would be very expensive to do so
> unless/until they drastically change the way they pick the dots to place
> on their quad charts. And it is sad, but true, that lots of large
> enterprises put so much stock into what is essentially nothing more than
> a marketing channel (hence the preponderance of large companies and
> those with VC funding).

Yes, absolutely.

Several years ago I had us appearing in the Forrester reports, because
I'd helped out a Forrester staff member and he owed me.  So PostgreSQL
appeared in their industry reports for a few years.  Then their staff
changed, and, because we weren't a paying customer, they used the
information I had supplied specifically to find fault with PostgreSQL
after taking a big cash contract from Ingres (for example, we were
portrayed as "insecure" because we disclose our security vulns.)

This is not a game that we, as a non-profit open source project, can play.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com

On 10/16/2015 10:05 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
portrayed as "insecure" because we disclose our security vulns.)
>
> This is not a game that we, as a non-profit open source project, can play.

Nor do we want to. Leave it to the used car salesman. We have our
integrity, that is more important than market share.

JD


>


--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
New rule for social situations: "If you think to yourself not even
JD would say this..." Stop and shut your mouth. It's going to be bad.