Обсуждение: Re: [GENERAL] MySQL gets $19.5 MM

Le Mercredi 04 Juin 2003 14:49, Ned Lilly a écrit :
> This, combined with the admittedly weird SAP DB deal, is bad news for
> PostgreSQL.  Today, it's clearly the superior product.  It will be tomorrow
> too.  But Betamax was pretty neat too.
> PostgreSQL needs more corporate support.  Case studies are great, but
> someone needs to step into the void that Great Bridge created.

Betamax failed because it was developped by a single company (Sony) on its
own. MySQL do not have a community of developpers. PostgreSQL is a world
community. So why do you say PostgreSQL is going to be the next Betamax?

Furthermore, do you know the "burn-rate" of MySQL (the money spent everyday to
survive)? Answer: probably 19,5 million dollars devided by a few years. And
what will happen when MySQL runs out of fuel?

Cheers,
Jean-Michel

Jean-Michel,

Please cc: this to the original poster:

> > PostgreSQL.  Today, it's clearly the superior product.  It will be

It is really?   According to which criteria?  Clearly more popular, certainly.
However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than
MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product".

> > tomorrow too.  But Betamax was pretty neat too.
> > PostgreSQL needs more corporate support.  Case studies are great, but
> > someone needs to step into the void that Great Bridge created.

To be completely blunt:  MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise
of MySQL AB.   Their development is still centrally and very corporately
controlled; they are more a commercial company using the GPL as a
distribution mechanism than a real Open Source project.  And while Open
Source is hard to beat in the marketplace, MySQL AB is easily beaten  or
consumed by larger, fiercer commercial competitors.  Particularly since the
company has shown anything but astuteness in their commercial relationships.

Think about this: What would happen if Microsoft or Oracle purchased MySQL AB
in order to shut it down?  What would happen to the MySQL Project?  The same
thing that's happening to the SAP-DB project?

PostgreSQL has survived the deaths and/or acquisition of several companies,
most notably Great Bridge.  In this way, PostgreSQL is just like Linux ...
many people commercialize it but nobody owns it.

From my perspective, Great Bridge was, in fact, a problem for us because our
project became associated with GB in the public mind ... meaning that when GB
shut down due to a bad business model, a lot of people got the impression
that PostgreSQL was shutting down too.  We've been quite a while recovering
from that, and MySQL's public profile has surged ahead in the meantime.

I would ... or perhaps will ... be nice to get some corporate money again for
useful things like trade show booths.   But we want to avoid the impression
ever again that PostgreSQL is owned by any one company.  (Thankfully,
PostgreSQL Inc. has been very careful in this regard)

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Josh Berkus wrote:

> Jean-Michel,
>
> Please cc: this to the original poster:


He did.

> > > PostgreSQL.  Today, it's clearly the superior product.  It will be
>
> It is really?   According to which criteria?  Clearly more popular, certainly.
> However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than
> MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product".


Er... I said PostgreSQL was the superior product.  Re-read the original post.

> To be completely blunt:  MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise
> of MySQL AB.

Agreed.  But $19MM ought to buy them a little more time.

Regards,
Ned

MySQL AB is going 'toes up'? Or was that a 'what if'?

Josh Berkus wrote:

> Jean-Michel,
>
> Please cc: this to the original poster:
>
>
>>>PostgreSQL.  Today, it's clearly the superior product.  It will be
>
>
> It is really?   According to which criteria?  Clearly more popular, certainly.
> However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than
> MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product".
>
>
>>>tomorrow too.  But Betamax was pretty neat too.
>>>PostgreSQL needs more corporate support.  Case studies are great, but
>>>someone needs to step into the void that Great Bridge created.
>
>
> To be completely blunt:  MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise
> of MySQL AB.   Their development is still centrally and very corporately
> controlled; they are more a commercial company using the GPL as a
> distribution mechanism than a real Open Source project.  And while Open
> Source is hard to beat in the marketplace, MySQL AB is easily beaten  or
> consumed by larger, fiercer commercial competitors.  Particularly since the
> company has shown anything but astuteness in their commercial relationships.
>
> Think about this: What would happen if Microsoft or Oracle purchased MySQL AB
> in order to shut it down?  What would happen to the MySQL Project?  The same
> thing that's happening to the SAP-DB project?
>
> PostgreSQL has survived the deaths and/or acquisition of several companies,
> most notably Great Bridge.  In this way, PostgreSQL is just like Linux ...
> many people commercialize it but nobody owns it.
>
>From my perspective, Great Bridge was, in fact, a problem for us because our
> project became associated with GB in the public mind ... meaning that when GB
> shut down due to a bad business model, a lot of people got the impression
> that PostgreSQL was shutting down too.  We've been quite a while recovering
> from that, and MySQL's public profile has surged ahead in the meantime.
>
> I would ... or perhaps will ... be nice to get some corporate money again for
> useful things like trade show booths.   But we want to avoid the impression
> ever again that PostgreSQL is owned by any one company.  (Thankfully,
> PostgreSQL Inc. has been very careful in this regard)
>

Dennis,

> MySQL AB is going 'toes up'? Or was that a 'what if'?

That was a "what if".

My point is simply that:

Given: MySQL Project is completely dependant on MySQL AB
Given: MySQL AB is a small company.
Given:  MySQL AB has demonstrated near-catastrophic bad business
    decisions in the past (i.e. NuSphere).
Given: MySQL AB just received $19 mil in venture capital, which the
     funders will expect a large return on -- and promptly.
Given:  Even well-managed small companies are frequently subsumed by giant
        software corporations.
---------------------------------------
Conclusion: MySQL users should be worried about what might happen to MySQL,
the project, in the future, based on what happens to MySQL AB.   And they,
like SAP-DB, should be prepared to fork the GPL code.

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

all very good points. And I felt a little bit of bile in my mouth, myself, when I realized, several years ago, the true
developmentand business model behind MySQL. Also, the HODGEPODGE way they added features from other development
projects.

But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to Konqueror.  Someone who puts a lot of time
andmoney into the product for their own selfish interests, but then releases it. 

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Dennis,
>
>
>>MySQL AB is going 'toes up'? Or was that a 'what if'?
>
>
> That was a "what if".
>
> My point is simply that:
>
> Given: MySQL Project is completely dependant on MySQL AB
> Given: MySQL AB is a small company.
> Given:  MySQL AB has demonstrated near-catastrophic bad business
>     decisions in the past (i.e. NuSphere).
> Given: MySQL AB just received $19 mil in venture capital, which the
>      funders will expect a large return on -- and promptly.
> Given:  Even well-managed small companies are frequently subsumed by giant
>         software corporations.
> ---------------------------------------
> Conclusion: MySQL users should be worried about what might happen to MySQL,
> the project, in the future, based on what happens to MySQL AB.   And they,
> like SAP-DB, should be prepared to fork the GPL code.
>

Dennis,

> But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to
Konqueror.  Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for
their own selfish interests, but then releases it.

I'd like a little funding, just for Trade shows.  Heck, I'd go to 6 shows a
year for PostgreSQL, if someone would pay me to do it.

But getting dependant on funding from one company for development is
dangerous.   Talk to the Apache folks about their relationship to IBM, or the
Mozilla folks about AOL, or the Gnome folks, or anyone on OpenOffice.org
about Sun ... even where the project works well (like those) the participants
spend a *lot* of time politicking with the sponsor -- some months, more time
than you spend developing.

We are gratefully free of that, and you don't know how good that is until
you've had to deal with the opposite.

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities?  I would be
*very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and maybe
show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE
options, etc.

I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and that is a pretty
cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea, cheese, yada-yada-yada).  The
questions is how to get folks to attend...

..sound like mail stuffing party to me!


Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>:

> Dennis,
>
> > But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to
>
> Konqueror.  Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for
> their own selfish interests, but then releases it.
>
> I'd like a little funding, just for Trade shows.  Heck, I'd go to 6 shows a
> year for PostgreSQL, if someone would pay me to do it.
>
> But getting dependant on funding from one company for development is
> dangerous.   Talk to the Apache folks about their relationship to IBM, or the
>
> Mozilla folks about AOL, or the Gnome folks, or anyone on OpenOffice.org
> about Sun ... even where the project works well (like those) the participants
>
> spend a *lot* of time politicking with the sponsor -- some months, more time
>
> than you spend developing.
>
> We are gratefully free of that, and you don't know how good that is until
> you've had to deal with the opposite.
>
> --
> -Josh Berkus
>  Aglio Database Solutions
>  San Francisco
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>


--
Keith C. Perry
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Keith,

> What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities?  I
would be
> *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and
maybe
> show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE
> options, etc.

Sounds great to me ... think we could organize one as a BOF for LWE-SF?

I'll talk and recruit attendees if you'll set up the facilities ....

--
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Network Administrator wrote:

> What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities?  I would be
> *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and maybe
> show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE
> options, etc.
>
> I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and that is a pretty
> cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea, cheese, yada-yada-yada).  The
> questions is how to get folks to attend...
>
> ..sound like mail stuffing party to me!

Never underestimate how much you can do just by being a part of your local
community.  I'm giving a quick session tonight here in Denver to compare
MySQL, Postgresql and Firebird.

While I personally prefer Postgresql there are some things MySQL is
particularly suited to as well, and some things that firebird is suited to
as well.

A fair and valid comparison of their features is a useful way of "selling"
Postgresql to the people who need it.

[removed general@ ]

> > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different
> > cities?  I would be *very* interested in sponsering short seminars
> > that simply market Pg and maybe show some demo's and discuss
> > thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE options, etc.
> >
> > I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and
> > that is a pretty cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea,
> > cheese, yada-yada-yada).  The questions is how to get folks to
> > attend...
> >
> > ..sound like mail stuffing party to me!
>
> Never underestimate how much you can do just by being a part of your
> local community.  I'm giving a quick session tonight here in Denver
> to compare MySQL, Postgresql and Firebird.
>
> While I personally prefer Postgresql there are some things MySQL is
> particularly suited to as well, and some things that firebird is
> suited to as well.
>
> A fair and valid comparison of their features is a useful way of
> "selling" Postgresql to the people who need it.

Do you have any notes on the three that you could post?  -sc

--
Sean Chittenden

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Sean Chittenden wrote:

> [removed general@ ]
>
> > > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different
> > > cities?  I would be *very* interested in sponsering short seminars
> > > that simply market Pg and maybe show some demo's and discuss
> > > thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration, IDE options, etc.
> > >
> > > I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and
> > > that is a pretty cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea,
> > > cheese, yada-yada-yada).  The questions is how to get folks to
> > > attend...
> > >
> > > ..sound like mail stuffing party to me!
> >
> > Never underestimate how much you can do just by being a part of your
> > local community.  I'm giving a quick session tonight here in Denver
> > to compare MySQL, Postgresql and Firebird.
> >
> > While I personally prefer Postgresql there are some things MySQL is
> > particularly suited to as well, and some things that firebird is
> > suited to as well.
> >
> > A fair and valid comparison of their features is a useful way of
> > "selling" Postgresql to the people who need it.
>
> Do you have any notes on the three that you could post?  -sc

Yes, but they're just kinda scatter brained stuff right now.  I'm a bit
rushed at work this week, so if I forget remind me next week.

Quoting "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>:

>
>
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Network Administrator wrote:
>
> > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities?  I
> would be
> > *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and
> maybe
> > show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration,
> IDE
> > options, etc.
> >
> > I used to rent meeting rooms at hotels for another venture and that is a
> pretty
> > cheap thing to do (include the coffee, tea, cheese, yada-yada-yada).  The
> > questions is how to get folks to attend...
> >
> > ..sound like mail stuffing party to me!
>
> Never underestimate how much you can do just by being a part of your local
> community.  I'm giving a quick session tonight here in Denver to compare
> MySQL, Postgresql and Firebird.

True indeed.  I think I'll put someone on to research some local businesses and
then I'll put together a seminar maybe for the fall.  You're right though- "if
you build it they will come"

> While I personally prefer Postgresql there are some things MySQL is
> particularly suited to as well, and some things that firebird is suited to
> as well.

Right, I don't necessarily hate on MySQL (or any Open Source product) but I know
its just as a religious a talk as Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD.  My goal is to
simply provide alternatives to the way things are done now.  I teach at a
technical school and one of the things my students appreciate is the fact that
I'm very honest about what they may expect in their career- including the fact
that it is ok to conside solutions that are not necessarily corporate culture.
In the end, I tell them, all that counts is your ability to complete the tasks
set before you.  One day that "demo" box in your office might move to the
production room :)

One of the things that I am doing (and will write up for submission) is showing
Domino6 & PostgreSQL integration.  If things go right, I hoping that some of the
folks I know in the city goverment will get wind of this and then reconsider
using Oracle as the city standard- gotta walk before I can run.

> A fair and valid comparison of their features is a useful way of "selling"
> Postgresql to the people who need it.

.and they all said," <--religious praise inserted here--> "

--
Keith C. Perry
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Keith,

> Right, I don't necessarily hate on MySQL (or any Open Source product) but I
> know its just as a religious a talk as Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD.  My goal

Although I don't know that there are any Linux companies who have made it a
marketing goal to eliminate BSD.   Not even IBM.

I have no problems with MySQL ... I even use it for one client.  *MySQL AB*,
on the other hand, seems to have figured out Open Source licensing without
ever understanding the OSS axiom that "choice is good".

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>:

> Keith,
>
> > Right, I don't necessarily hate on MySQL (or any Open Source product) but
> I
> > know its just as a religious a talk as Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD.  My goal
>
> Although I don't know that there are any Linux companies who have made it a
> marketing goal to eliminate BSD.   Not even IBM.

Oh no I wasn't saying that at all only that in every "religion" there are fanatics.


<other stuff deleted>

--
Keith C. Perry
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Quoting Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>:

> Keith,
>
> > What if smaller not-quite-trade-shows were held in different cities?  I
> would be
> > *very* interested in sponsering short seminars that simply market Pg and
> maybe
> > show some demo's and discuss thinks like migrate to Pg, Administration,
> IDE
> > options, etc.
>
> Sounds great to me ... think we could organize one as a BOF for LWE-SF?
>
> I'll talk and recruit attendees if you'll set up the facilities ....

I'm on the East Coast and I'll actually be coming back from vacation that week
but we can talk off list about this.  I think I would be interested if
sponsering a BOF depending on all the elements in the equation  :)

(no, I'm not quoting Bullet-Tooth Tony from Guy Richie's movie "Snatch")



> --
> -Josh Berkus
>  Aglio Database Solutions
>  San Francisco
>
>


--
Keith C. Perry
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Ned Lilly wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>> Jean-Michel,
>>
>> Please cc: this to the original poster:
>
>
> He did.
>
>> > > PostgreSQL.  Today, it's clearly the superior product.  It will be
>>
>> It is really?   According to which criteria?  Clearly more popular, certainly.
>> However, I may point out that MS Access still has more installations than
>> MySQL ...and nobody is calling MS Access a "superior database product".
>
>
> Er... I said PostgreSQL was the superior product.  Re-read the original post.
>
>> To be completely blunt:  MySQL the database will not easily survive the demise
>> of MySQL AB.
>
> Agreed.  But $19MM ought to buy them a little more time.

Really? How patient are VC's who invest around 20 megadollars these
days? In the GB case the business modell got changed and the CEO
replaced even before we had real offices.

Now MySQL has to ramp up business to satisfy the investors and at the
same time they have to develop another database to satisfy SAP ... how
much time will be left to satisfy all the open source users with respect
to the promised features "in the old product line"? Renaming the
existing SAPDB into MySQL doesn't give any existing MySQL user more
functionality. At least not in a way they couldn't do it right now
without this naming confusion.


Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #

> all very good points. And I felt a little bit of bile in my mouth, myself,
when I realized, several years ago, the true development and business model
behind MySQL. Also, the HODGEPODGE way they added features from other
development projects.

Yeah, but keep in your mind the somewhat hodgepodge nature of PostgreSQL
(eg. foreign keys, inheritance, etc...)

Chris

On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:57:07AM -0700, Dennis Gearon wrote:
> But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to
> Konqueror.  Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for
> their own selfish interests, but then releases it.

I disagree.  I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies
who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece.  Or, maybe
more precisely, _several_ companies to do that.  The only thing
currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part,
IMO.

A

--
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS                           Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110

That's a good, mabye better model!

Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:57:07AM -0700, Dennis Gearon wrote:
>
>>But others are right. We need someone like IBM is to Linux, or Apple is to
>>Konqueror.  Someone who puts a lot of time and money into the product for
>>their own selfish interests, but then releases it.
>
>
> I disagree.  I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies
> who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece.  Or, maybe
> more precisely, _several_ companies to do that.  The only thing
> currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part,
> IMO.
>
> A
>

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Michael Meskes wrote:

> There are some, but I still disagree. The biggest advantage of
> PostgreSQL in my opinion has always been that it's a community project
> and not driven by some commercial interests. I also do not agree that
> IBM is so important for Linux. IBM helps yes, but there's also a huge
> risk. Paying people unselfishly to do community work is a very difficult
> business model.

In fact ... from what I've been reading, IBM is pretty much what put Linux
onto SCO's radar ... until there were 'big backers', according to one
article I read, who was SCO going to sue?  Linus?

Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> writes:
[ quoting Andrew Sullivan ]
>>> I disagree.  I think what PostgreSQL really needs is a few companies
>>> who are willing to underwrite a developer or two a piece.  Or, maybe
>>> more precisely, _several_ companies to do that.  The only thing
>>> currently missing in the community, therefore, is the "several" part,
>>> IMO.

> There are some, but I still disagree. The biggest advantage of
> PostgreSQL in my opinion has always been that it's a community project
> and not driven by some commercial interests.

These are not mutually exclusive.  Each developer has his own axe to
grind, without doubt; I don't think it matters much whether his goals
are set by personal or corporate priorities.  The critical thing from
the perspective of the PostgreSQL project is that no one person or
company have an overriding influence on where the project goes.  So
I'd think the situation Andrew suggests, where several companies each
contribute a small part of the total effort, would be ideal.  What we
need to guard against is a situation where one company controls a large
share of the development effort and can thereby dictate choices that
might be in their best interest but not be in the best interest of the
project as a whole.

(And how do we decide what's the best interest of the project as a
whole, anyway?  Well, community consensus is the only way that I can
see.  Again, the critical factor is that no one voice drown out the
rest.)

The core committee has spent a fair amount of time worrying about
exactly this issue, as first Great Bridge and later Red Hat threatened
to become the 800-pound gorilla.  As a former employee of the former
and a current employee of the latter, I may not be the most unbiased
observer available to comment on the issue --- but I can tell you that
it's something I do think about.

            regards, tom lane

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Tom Lane wrote:

> The core committee has spent a fair amount of time worrying about
> exactly this issue, as first Great Bridge and later Red Hat threatened
> to become the 800-pound gorilla.  As a former employee of the former and
> a current employee of the latter, I may not be the most unbiased
> observer available to comment on the issue --- but I can tell you that
> it's something I do think about.

As one that was very resistent to GreatBridge (and not so much to RedHat),
I can't say that my worries at the time were justified ... in both cases,
both companies have allowed Tom to spend a *great* deal of time working on
the larger features, features that may have been alot slower (and more
difficult) to implement otherwise ...

I have no doubt that some of those features were 'pushed to the top of the
TODO list' due to their business case, but I can't think of any that were
against teh desires of the community ... were there?

Folks,

> (And how do we decide what's the best interest of the project as a
> whole, anyway?  Well, community consensus is the only way that I can
> see.  Again, the critical factor is that no one voice drown out the
> rest.)

Well, a lot of it has been about the core committee and trust.   The rest of
us trust the core committee to promote what they think is best for
PostgreSQL, and not what their employers think, unless the two are compatible
(for example, I don't think anyone objects to SRA's pushing Windows ... ).
Plus most of the core committee is very active on the mailing lists and
actively fields user requests and answers user opinions.

So if one of us gets mad that a feature or patch was turned down, nobody is
left with the opinion that it's becuase the core committee wasn't paying
attention or is speaking for their employers.  Nor would any every expect
that we would see a feature that had been rejected for the TODO list suddenly
appear in the source tree.  If private companies using their own money want
to change the *priorities* on the TODO list, that's fine -- and no different
from volunteer programmers with an itch to scratch, except maybe in scale.

Besides, I think most of us  active participants have some business related to
Postgres.  I'm a consultant, for example, and I freely admit that I pushed
for not waiting for Win32 and PITR for 7.4 because some of my clients want to
use 7.4 now and not later, with or without those features.

Sometimes the process breaks down a bit ... I can think of a few features
which were discussed and accepted on the Hackers list and then rejected when
they reached Patches ... but the vast majority of the time it works better
than the projects I know with a larger community and a more formal governance
structure.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 08:52:05PM +0200, Michael Meskes wrote:

<snip>
> I also do not agree that IBM is so important for Linux.
ACK.
Even IBM really endangeres Linux an other open source projects.
IBM is one of the greatest proponents of software patents.
They've got thousands of european software patents, which are illegal
up today. All together the european patent office has granted
more than 30.000 illegal software patents - against the written law.
(so you clearly can call them criminals)

The patent proponents in the patent offices and some companies (BSA)
want to change the law to legalize those illegal patents and allow
an unlimited patentability just like in the USA - for whole europe!

I dont need to mention what happens to the european software industry
and to opensource projects, if they succeed with making crime to legality.

We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this.
On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive
draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable.

Please help to safe our freedom!

http://patinfo.ffii.org/
http://swpat.ffii.org/

cu
--
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 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux ITS
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weigelt@metux.de wrote:
> [...]
> We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this.
> On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive
> draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable.

Oh - that sounds great ... a bunch of blind people talking about the
color of a rainbow ...

I expect this to lead to the same stupidity of "patents" like NetFlix
got lately. For those who don't know, NetFlix is a DVD rental company
where you have an online managed list of movies you want to see. They
send you the first 3 and whenever you send one back they send you the
next via regular mail. The entire thing costs $20 a month, all postage
paid, they provide the envilopes.

Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service.
I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he
claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a
piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to
get paid or you're as stupid as it gets.


Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #

I don't see what's invalid about NetFlix patent. They came up with a
brand new business process which no one had thought of up to that point.
AFAIK, business processes are patentable IP.

Of course, it's certainly valid to argue that patents for many things
now-a-days last too long. I don't know what class of patent a business
process falls into, but I know many patents can easily last 17 years,
clearly far too long for something like software.

On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 05:42:08PM -0400, Jan Wieck wrote:
> weigelt@metux.de wrote:
> >[...]
> >We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this.
> >On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive
> >draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable.
>
> Oh - that sounds great ... a bunch of blind people talking about the
> color of a rainbow ...
>
> I expect this to lead to the same stupidity of "patents" like NetFlix
> got lately. For those who don't know, NetFlix is a DVD rental company
> where you have an online managed list of movies you want to see. They
> send you the first 3 and whenever you send one back they send you the
> next via regular mail. The entire thing costs $20 a month, all postage
> paid, they provide the envilopes.
>
> Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service.
> I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he
> claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a
> piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to
> get paid or you're as stupid as it gets.
>
>
> Jan
>
> --
> #======================================================================#
> # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
> # Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
> #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>      joining column's datatypes do not match
>

--
Jim C. Nasby, Database Consultant                  jim@nasby.net
Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828

Windows: "Where do you want to go today?"
Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?"
FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?"

Jan Wieck wrote:
> Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription
> service. I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for
> that. If he claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less
> smart than a piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band
> patent you have to get paid or you're as stupid as it gets.

BRIBERY! Surely not ? You jest ? Take that back now!

These people earn so much and what about that oath they take about upholding
the values of their office...

Hmm. Maybe they are pieces of toast. Just do a search on goolge for 'bizarre
patents' and have a quite giggle. Then realise that what you are laughing
about has a direct consequence on your commercial stability.

Peter

I have never heard about NetFlix, but there is a small company in sweden which use almost the same scheme... You pay a
monthlyfee, fill in a form with your name+address, which movies you want and then they send them to you, i think you
canhave at most five movies at a time... and when you return them they send you other movies...  Does this mean they
willgo out of business now?? Or is the patent only valid when you get three dvd's at a time?? 

Oh, you pay 20USD per month for NetFlix? Maybe I should patent this:
"A cost/pricing model where you pay a non-variable monthly fee for one or more services, single or bundled together".
Byebye all flat-rate phone companies... bye bye NetFlix... bye bye cable tv... bye bye <IYF business>... ;-) 

This is funny (and true): In sweden we had a group of bank robbers, which were called [whatever, i dont remember right
now]in the newspapers... they copyrighted that name, and had the newspapers pay them for using it... who said crime
doesnot pay?? :) 

/* m */

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim C. Nasby" <jim@nasby.net>
To: "Jan Wieck" <JanWieck@Yahoo.com>
Cc: <weigelt@metux.de>; <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>; "Dennis Gearon" <gearond@cvc.net>; "Andrew Sullivan"
<andrew@libertyrms.info>;<pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org> 
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [GENERAL] MySQL gets $19.5 MM


> I don't see what's invalid about NetFlix patent. They came up with a
> brand new business process which no one had thought of up to that point.
> AFAIK, business processes are patentable IP.
>
> Of course, it's certainly valid to argue that patents for many things
> now-a-days last too long. I don't know what class of patent a business
> process falls into, but I know many patents can easily last 17 years,
> clearly far too long for something like software.
>
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 05:42:08PM -0400, Jan Wieck wrote:
> > weigelt@metux.de wrote:
> > >[...]
> > >We of the FFII/Eurolinux alliance are fighting against this.
> > >On September 1st. the European Parlament will decide on an directive
> > >draft from the JURI, which allow every idea to be patentable.
> >
> > Oh - that sounds great ... a bunch of blind people talking about the
> > color of a rainbow ...
> >
> > I expect this to lead to the same stupidity of "patents" like NetFlix
> > got lately. For those who don't know, NetFlix is a DVD rental company
> > where you have an online managed list of movies you want to see. They
> > send you the first 3 and whenever you send one back they send you the
> > next via regular mail. The entire thing costs $20 a month, all postage
> > paid, they provide the envilopes.
> >
> > Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service.
> > I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he
> > claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a
> > piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to
> > get paid or you're as stupid as it gets.
> >
> >
> > Jan
> >
> > --
> > #======================================================================#
> > # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
> > # Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
> > #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
> >      joining column's datatypes do not match
> >
>
> --
> Jim C. Nasby, Database Consultant                  jim@nasby.net
> Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America
> Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828
>
> Windows: "Where do you want to go today?"
> Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?"
> FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?"
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
>       subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
>       message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>

Jan,

> Now they have a "patent" on their system of rental subscription service.
> I wonder how much the guy in the patent office got paid for that. If he
> claims he got nothing, IMHO he simply claims he's less smart than a
> piece of toast ... for granting such a rubber band patent you have to
> get paid or you're as stupid as it gets.

Actually, the main problem is that Congress is currently looting the patent
office of funds (i.e., patent fees are used to subsidize the US Treasury,
instead of the Patent Office being subsidized by the government).  As a
result, each patent clerk is required to review about ten times as many
patents each month has they were required to in 1990.

With that kind of workload, and no penalties for mistakes, you can imagine
that the patent clerks just rubber-stamp a fair amount of applications so
they can go home.

And, IMNSHO, business method patents are one of the stupidest ideas to come
out of Congress in US history.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco